Great show as usual. A couple things:

Ska, as a fellow wearer of glasses, I'm totally with you on the anti 3D thing. Luckily for me, my friends don't care much about 3D either, so given the option we stick with 2D whenever we can.

As for the whole Killing Joke kerfuffle, I agree with both Meg's anti-WiR stance and Spazzy's points about Babs being a better character as Oracle.

And not to take any of the wind out of your sails Meg, but so far in the Wolverine Goes to Hell arc the only person who's been stuffed in the fridge is Wraith from the first issue. Yukio survived Hellverine's assault and Mariko was killed off years ago.

rwe1138 wrote:Great show as usual. A couple things:

Ska, as a fellow wearer of glasses, I'm totally with you on the anti 3D thing. Luckily for me, my friends don't care much about 3D either, so given the option we stick with 2D whenever we can.

As for the whole Killing Joke kerfuffle, I agree with both Meg's anti-WiR stance and Spazzy's points about Babs being a better character as Oracle.

And not to take any of the wind out of your sails Meg, but so far in the Wolverine Goes to Hell arc the only person who's been stuffed in the fridge is Wraith from the first issue. Yukio survived Hellverine's assault and Mariko was killed off years ago.

While i'll i've one seen one 3-d film G-force (don't hate i liked it) I didn't have trouble with the 3-classes they were big enough to go over my glasses.

But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't. And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now? Nope. That kind of violence isn't ok, and that was the entire point of what I was saying. So the wind is still in my sails.

And like I said, Babs as Oracle is fantastic. I love her as Oracle. But The Killing Joke did NOT make her Oracle. After TKJ became a part of continuity, I think most people figured she would get dropped out of things more or less. Yale and Ostrander made her Oracle, they took the worst part of that book and made it into something that eventually became a blessing for women, people who are disabled, and for the rest of the DCU.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't. And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now? Nope. That kind of violence isn't ok, and that was the entire point of what I was saying. So the wind is still in my sails.

And like I said, Babs as Oracle is fantastic. I love her as Oracle. But The Killing Joke did NOT make her Oracle. After TKJ became a part of continuity, I think most people figured she would get dropped out of things more or less. Yale and Ostrander made her Oracle, they took the worst part of that book and made it into something that eventually became a blessing for women, people who are disabled, and for the rest of the DCU.

well at least they didn't kill off Barbara Gordon like Kyle Rayner's girl friend.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't. And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now? Nope. That kind of violence isn't ok, and that was the entire point of what I was saying. So the wind is still in my sails.

There really aren't any other people that they could target for violence that Wolverine cares about. The devil is trying to break Wolvie and what would break him more than having the woman he loved be forced to commit these acts of violence against him. As far as going after Yukio, how many loved ones does Wolverine really have? From a storytelling standpoint I don't see this as being violence against women just for the hell of it.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And like I said, Babs as Oracle is fantastic. I love her as Oracle. But The Killing Joke did NOT make her Oracle. After TKJ became a part of continuity, I think most people figured she would get dropped out of things more or less. Yale and Ostrander made her Oracle, they took the worst part of that book and made it into something that eventually became a blessing for women, people who are disabled, and for the rest of the DCU.

Oh, I totally agree with you there. Moore broke Babs and Yale & Ostrander made an Author Saving Throw to not only fix her, but arguably make her more interesting. They still made lemonade from Moore's lemons.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now?

No, but Jason Aaron is just working with what's already been established. He's not putting her in the fridge, he's... re-arranging her leftovers?

comicgeekelly wrote:

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't.

There really aren't any other people that they could target for violence that Wolverine cares about. The devil is trying to break Wolvie and what would break him more than having the woman he loved be forced to commit these acts of violence against him. As far as going after Yukio, how many loved ones does Wolverine really have? From a storytelling standpoint I don't see this as being violence against women just for the hell of it.

So far Hellverine's gone after five people: Wraith, Yukio, adopted-daughter-who's-name-I-forget, Daken and (as of next week) X-23. Three women, two men, who all have close ties to Logan. I'd say Hellverine isn't misogynistic, just anti-Wolverine and going after the people Logan's been close to lately. And Daken.

My initial reaction to this: Well if it's for the story, then just GO RIGHT AHEAD. No. No, no, no. There's SO MUCH wrong with that. *throws bowl across room*


What I'm gonna say instead:
Honestly, I don't think anyone who wants to believe that that particular brand of violence isn't exactly what it is, no amount of my raging or arguing to going to convince them otherwise.

That commissions guy sucks.

Brightest Day is a bunch of white guys beating on each other? Didn't notice that. You know, with Jason Rusch, Hawkgirl, Dove, Black Manta, Jackson, Mera,...J'onn & Mary, I guess, count. Pretty sure there's other non-white male characters, just can't think of them. Oh, and the titles under the banner, like Birds of Prey, JLA, etc.

Jason didn't die heroically. He was suckerpunched by a full grown man, kicked while he was down, then beaten by a crowbar and blown up by the Joker.

Rob, I wasn't saying the whole book was misogynistic, it's just another example (to throw on the ever-growing pile) of chicks getting shafted in comics.

And Blue, thank you for completely missing my point.

Barbara never blamed herself. Still don't understand where people pull that from. She was worried about her father and asked about him. She's Batgirl, a vigilante with foes like The Joker, she thought maybe her being Batgirl was the reason they were attacked. I don't condone the use of her character. Completely, completely agree with everyone on that point.

Now, I'm not sure anyone knows misogyny's meaning, how severe or unfair that labelling/assumption towards a person or group of people can be. Even with that line of thinking, of theorizing that writer's mindset of the use of Babs, male chauvinism would be more astute with the argument you're going for, Meg. You can't say Moore hates women if you don't know the person. Could his writing of Babs be seen as a disparaging of women? God, yea. Was that his intention? Can't say. Who can? Would I say there is more violence to female characters to males when equating percentage of male to female ratio? Course. That's obvious. Us fanboys-being-fanboys don't not notice. We're not gerbils at a feeder. I would've had Babs be Batgirl until she became Batwoman. And then forever be that mantle. But to say someone is misogynistic is pretty harsh. And I don't even like the guy as a person.

Are male and female horror writer and directors misogynistic?

I wouldn't call Gail Simone a misandrist by having a womanizing character, Deadshot, off a defensless woman tied to a chair, Pistolera, because another female character, Scandal, wasn't strong enough to deal with the scenario. Or how about blatantly murdering a father in front of his son to show how evil "Junior" is in a story? Or by breaking the neck of a Cap. Stingaree, a long-running, homosexual character--given, a D-lister--by Jeanette or breaking the back of Cavalier by Bane, a longer running character who is also gay. Scandal propositioned by a dirty old man, and same dirty old man threatens the life of a baby boy of Cheshire's and Catman's, resulting in the anguish for Cheshire to think her boy is dead after her other child, Lian, is killed in Cry for Jusice. Mad Hatter has always had underlying perv themes by other writers, given, but Gail was the first to have portrayed him as a sex fiend with the use of his Hats and his orgies. Also, Apokalyptians, specifically Knockout, have celebratory sex after battle. Wouldn't have known that without Gail's story. Do I view her as sexist in any way? No. Do I view that as her portraying the characters? Sure do.

It can be upsetting when characters are mistreated. Like when The Flash's kids, Iris & Jai, were killed. When they died I was like, "What the fuck is that?!?!" Or when Wasp was put down like a sick dog in Secret Invasion. It sucks, and you have full right to not like something. Shows you have a strong and, IMO, rightful opinion about misuse of a character(s), standing against a large opposition. I want better characters all around the board myself. And I get the constant misuse of female characters, feels personal to extent, despite them being fictitious. If male characters in a prominently female universe were constantly offed and abused I'd feel peeved, left out, ranty, etc. But the reason I brought up Gail's use of characters is to ask what is okay for a writer to write? Shouldn't it be anything? Without it being called misogynistic or misandric or any kind of label by jumping to conclusions about the intentions of a writer? And that's my point. Absolutely agree with the misuse argument, but to label, not so much.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And Blue, thank you for completely missing my point.

What point of Brightest Day did I miss?

Meg put me on her Tumblr and announced me on her Twitter. Yay! She's looking for help to discuss this very forward, respectful opinion on the topic.

I'm apparently giving her shit about The Killing Joke and I don't understand Gail's writing? We've argued before and I don't get it? Who are you to say these things about people? Seriously, Meg. How old are you?

"There’s just SO MUCH wrong here. I want to argue this, to try and get them to just understand that VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN COMICS IS WRONG, that MINORITY CHARACTERS GET SHAFTED ALL THE TIME IN TERMS OF EXPOSURE AND VIOLENCE DONE TO THEM." - Meg (And no, I didn't add the caps.)

Thought I showed my sentiments against the violence towards female characters, but...okay. And she goes off into a tangent about racial issues...I'm at a loss.

WOO DRAMAZ!

^ I'd say. What's this all about? Bending things to your favor.

"Comic feminists, I need help here…" As if I don't have a grasp of feminism or stand up for it. Kind of insulting. Just kinda.

BlueMaxx wrote:

Now, I'm not sure anyone knows misogyny's meaning, how severe or unfair that labelling/assumption towards a person or group of people can be. Even with that line of thinking, of theorizing that writer's mindset of the use of Babs, male chauvinism would be more astute with the argument you're going for, Meg. You can't say Moore hates women if you don't know the person. Could his writing of Babs be seen as a disparaging of women? God, yea. Was that his intention? Can't say. Who can? Would I say there is more violence to female characters to males when equating percentage of male to female ratio? Course. That's obvious. Us fanboys-being-fanboys don't not notice. We're not gerbils at a feeder. I would've had Babs be Batgirl until she became Batwoman. And then forever be that mantle. But to say someone is misogynistic is pretty harsh. And I don't even like the guy as a person.

Are male and female horror writer and directors misogynistic?

You are making the common mistake of confusing a writer's personal feelings with their output. Writers are fully capable of writing and producing misogynistic pieces but they themselves may not be misogynistic. Just as writers can write things that are racist but they themselves may not be racist.
Intention really has nothing to do with it. If one subscribes to the critical theory of reader response it does not matter what the writer intended, it is what the reader sees. And in the case of the Killing Joke, what do we see? A woman shot, stripped naked and then photographed. A woman who has no agency in the violent act. A woman who is robbed of even a POV of her own shooting (we see her react to Joker but the viewpoint then moves to the third person.) And, of course, a woman who is not shot because of who she is, but who her father is. I and many other people find it hard to not look at those panels and others in the book and not see an undercurrent of dislike towards women. Now, add in the framework of how the panels got on the page (Len Wein's verbal approval to Alan Moore that he could "cripple the bitch) and you can see even further why there is a belief that the book, indeed, does have misogynistic overtones.

This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Alex DeWitt, a statistic of being in a relationship with a hero.

What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.

G_Zatara wrote:This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Yeah, this wasn't really a "line of duty" kind of thing. I remember when I first read it, already knowing that Barbara got shot and paralyzed, being surprised at how random it was and how much she wasn't really in the story at all, even after the fact. There wasn't anything heroic about her injury, and that's the point.

G_Zatara wrote:
What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.

I think a lot of people were pissed off by Identity Crisis for a lot of reasons, and I'm pretty sure that was one of them. People are still upset about the Dibny's for sure.

Joker is a sociopath.

Random acts of violence is sort of his thing. No, it wasn't in the line of duty, but I mean would it have mattered if it was anybody else by Babs?

I mean Selina had her heart-ripped out, that's more contemporary. Violence against anybody is always tragic, but something that is all part of the game now. I mean shit, Black Adam fucking scrambled Psycho Pirates brains in battle. How many times have Terra died now?