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PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion

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1 PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:40 pm

rwe1138

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Great show as usual. A couple things:

Ska, as a fellow wearer of glasses, I'm totally with you on the anti 3D thing. Luckily for me, my friends don't care much about 3D either, so given the option we stick with 2D whenever we can.

As for the whole Killing Joke kerfuffle, I agree with both Meg's anti-WiR stance and Spazzy's points about Babs being a better character as Oracle.

And not to take any of the wind out of your sails Meg, but so far in the Wolverine Goes to Hell arc the only person who's been stuffed in the fridge is Wraith from the first issue. Yukio survived Hellverine's assault and Mariko was killed off years ago.


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2 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:57 pm

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rwe1138 wrote:Great show as usual. A couple things:

Ska, as a fellow wearer of glasses, I'm totally with you on the anti 3D thing. Luckily for me, my friends don't care much about 3D either, so given the option we stick with 2D whenever we can.

As for the whole Killing Joke kerfuffle, I agree with both Meg's anti-WiR stance and Spazzy's points about Babs being a better character as Oracle.

And not to take any of the wind out of your sails Meg, but so far in the Wolverine Goes to Hell arc the only person who's been stuffed in the fridge is Wraith from the first issue. Yukio survived Hellverine's assault and Mariko was killed off years ago.


While i'll i've one seen one 3-d film G-force (don't hate i liked it) I didn't have trouble with the 3-classes they were big enough to go over my glasses.

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3 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:59 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't. And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now? Nope. That kind of violence isn't ok, and that was the entire point of what I was saying. So the wind is still in my sails.

And like I said, Babs as Oracle is fantastic. I love her as Oracle. But The Killing Joke did NOT make her Oracle. After TKJ became a part of continuity, I think most people figured she would get dropped out of things more or less. Yale and Ostrander made her Oracle, they took the worst part of that book and made it into something that eventually became a blessing for women, people who are disabled, and for the rest of the DCU.


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4 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:33 am

kidspider2099

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WonderWoman2.0 wrote:But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't. And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now? Nope. That kind of violence isn't ok, and that was the entire point of what I was saying. So the wind is still in my sails.

And like I said, Babs as Oracle is fantastic. I love her as Oracle. But The Killing Joke did NOT make her Oracle. After TKJ became a part of continuity, I think most people figured she would get dropped out of things more or less. Yale and Ostrander made her Oracle, they took the worst part of that book and made it into something that eventually became a blessing for women, people who are disabled, and for the rest of the DCU.


well at least they didn't kill off Barbara Gordon like Kyle Rayner's girl friend.

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5 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:43 am

comicgeekelly

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WonderWoman2.0 wrote:But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't. And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now? Nope. That kind of violence isn't ok, and that was the entire point of what I was saying. So the wind is still in my sails.

There really aren't any other people that they could target for violence that Wolverine cares about. The devil is trying to break Wolvie and what would break him more than having the woman he loved be forced to commit these acts of violence against him. As far as going after Yukio, how many loved ones does Wolverine really have? From a storytelling standpoint I don't see this as being violence against women just for the hell of it.

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6 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:02 am

rwe1138

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WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And like I said, Babs as Oracle is fantastic. I love her as Oracle. But The Killing Joke did NOT make her Oracle. After TKJ became a part of continuity, I think most people figured she would get dropped out of things more or less. Yale and Ostrander made her Oracle, they took the worst part of that book and made it into something that eventually became a blessing for women, people who are disabled, and for the rest of the DCU.
Oh, I totally agree with you there. Moore broke Babs and Yale & Ostrander made an Author Saving Throw to not only fix her, but arguably make her more interesting. They still made lemonade from Moore's lemons.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:And just because a character was killed of years ago makes it okay now?
No, but Jason Aaron is just working with what's already been established. He's not putting her in the fridge, he's... re-arranging her leftovers?

comicgeekelly wrote:
WonderWoman2.0 wrote:But does that change the fact that both were targeted for violence for no better reason than to advance the already-established plot point of "Oh, Wolverine's angsty"? No it doesn't.

There really aren't any other people that they could target for violence that Wolverine cares about. The devil is trying to break Wolvie and what would break him more than having the woman he loved be forced to commit these acts of violence against him. As far as going after Yukio, how many loved ones does Wolverine really have? From a storytelling standpoint I don't see this as being violence against women just for the hell of it.
So far Hellverine's gone after five people: Wraith, Yukio, adopted-daughter-who's-name-I-forget, Daken and (as of next week) X-23. Three women, two men, who all have close ties to Logan. I'd say Hellverine isn't misogynistic, just anti-Wolverine and going after the people Logan's been close to lately. And Daken.


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7 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:03 am

WonderWoman2.0

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My initial reaction to this: Well if it's for the story, then just GO RIGHT AHEAD. No. No, no, no. There's SO MUCH wrong with that. *throws bowl across room*


What I'm gonna say instead:
Honestly, I don't think anyone who wants to believe that that particular brand of violence isn't exactly what it is, no amount of my raging or arguing to going to convince them otherwise.


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8 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:03 am

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That commissions guy sucks.

Brightest Day is a bunch of white guys beating on each other? huh Didn't notice that. You know, with Jason Rusch, Hawkgirl, Dove, Black Manta, Jackson, Mera,...J'onn & Mary, I guess, count. Pretty sure there's other non-white male characters, just can't think of them. Oh, and the titles under the banner, like Birds of Prey, JLA, etc. tongue

Jason didn't die heroically. He was suckerpunched by a full grown man, kicked while he was down, then beaten by a crowbar and blown up by the Joker.

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9 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:07 am

WonderWoman2.0

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Rob, I wasn't saying the whole book was misogynistic, it's just another example (to throw on the ever-growing pile) of chicks getting shafted in comics.

And Blue, thank you for completely missing my point.


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10 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:07 am

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Barbara never blamed herself. Still don't understand where people pull that from. She was worried about her father and asked about him. She's Batgirl, a vigilante with foes like The Joker, she thought maybe her being Batgirl was the reason they were attacked. I don't condone the use of her character. Completely, completely agree with everyone on that point.

Now, I'm not sure anyone knows misogyny's meaning, how severe or unfair that labelling/assumption towards a person or group of people can be. Even with that line of thinking, of theorizing that writer's mindset of the use of Babs, male chauvinism would be more astute with the argument you're going for, Meg. You can't say Moore hates women if you don't know the person. Could his writing of Babs be seen as a disparaging of women? God, yea. Was that his intention? Can't say. Who can? Would I say there is more violence to female characters to males when equating percentage of male to female ratio? Course. That's obvious. Us fanboys-being-fanboys don't not notice. We're not gerbils at a feeder. I would've had Babs be Batgirl until she became Batwoman. And then forever be that mantle. But to say someone is misogynistic is pretty harsh. And I don't even like the guy as a person.

Are male and female horror writer and directors misogynistic?

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11 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:09 am

BlueMaxx

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I wouldn't call Gail Simone a misandrist by having a womanizing character, Deadshot, off a defensless woman tied to a chair, Pistolera, because another female character, Scandal, wasn't strong enough to deal with the scenario. Or how about blatantly murdering a father in front of his son to show how evil "Junior" is in a story? Or by breaking the neck of a Cap. Stingaree, a long-running, homosexual character--given, a D-lister--by Jeanette or breaking the back of Cavalier by Bane, a longer running character who is also gay. Scandal propositioned by a dirty old man, and same dirty old man threatens the life of a baby boy of Cheshire's and Catman's, resulting in the anguish for Cheshire to think her boy is dead after her other child, Lian, is killed in Cry for Jusice. Mad Hatter has always had underlying perv themes by other writers, given, but Gail was the first to have portrayed him as a sex fiend with the use of his Hats and his orgies. Also, Apokalyptians, specifically Knockout, have celebratory sex after battle. Wouldn't have known that without Gail's story. Do I view her as sexist in any way? No. Do I view that as her portraying the characters? Sure do.

It can be upsetting when characters are mistreated. Like when The Flash's kids, Iris & Jai, were killed. When they died I was like, "What the fuck is that?!?!" Or when Wasp was put down like a sick dog in Secret Invasion. It sucks, and you have full right to not like something. Shows you have a strong and, IMO, rightful opinion about misuse of a character(s), standing against a large opposition. I want better characters all around the board myself. And I get the constant misuse of female characters, feels personal to extent, despite them being fictitious. If male characters in a prominently female universe were constantly offed and abused I'd feel peeved, left out, ranty, etc. But the reason I brought up Gail's use of characters is to ask what is okay for a writer to write? Shouldn't it be anything? Without it being called misogynistic or misandric or any kind of label by jumping to conclusions about the intentions of a writer? And that's my point. Absolutely agree with the misuse argument, but to label, not so much.

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12 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:10 am

BlueMaxx

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WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And Blue, thank you for completely missing my point.
What point of Brightest Day did I miss?

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13 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:35 am

BlueMaxx

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Meg put me on her Tumblr and announced me on her Twitter. Yay! She's looking for help to discuss this very forward, respectful opinion on the topic.

I'm apparently giving her shit about The Killing Joke and I don't understand Gail's writing? We've argued before and I don't get it? Who are you to say these things about people? Seriously, Meg. How old are you?

"There’s just SO MUCH wrong here. I want to argue this, to try and get them to just understand that VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN COMICS IS WRONG, that MINORITY CHARACTERS GET SHAFTED ALL THE TIME IN TERMS OF EXPOSURE AND VIOLENCE DONE TO THEM." - Meg (And no, I didn't add the caps.)

Thought I showed my sentiments against the violence towards female characters, but...okay. And she goes off into a tangent about racial issues...I'm at a loss.

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14 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:38 am

WonderWoman2.0

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WOO DRAMAZ!


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15 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:39 am

BlueMaxx

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^ I'd say. What's this all about? Bending things to your favor.

"Comic feminists, I need help here…" As if I don't have a grasp of feminism or stand up for it. Kind of insulting. Just kinda. Rolling Eyes

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16 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:04 am

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17 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:56 am

BlueMaxx wrote:

Now, I'm not sure anyone knows misogyny's meaning, how severe or unfair that labelling/assumption towards a person or group of people can be. Even with that line of thinking, of theorizing that writer's mindset of the use of Babs, male chauvinism would be more astute with the argument you're going for, Meg. You can't say Moore hates women if you don't know the person. Could his writing of Babs be seen as a disparaging of women? God, yea. Was that his intention? Can't say. Who can? Would I say there is more violence to female characters to males when equating percentage of male to female ratio? Course. That's obvious. Us fanboys-being-fanboys don't not notice. We're not gerbils at a feeder. I would've had Babs be Batgirl until she became Batwoman. And then forever be that mantle. But to say someone is misogynistic is pretty harsh. And I don't even like the guy as a person.

Are male and female horror writer and directors misogynistic?
You are making the common mistake of confusing a writer's personal feelings with their output. Writers are fully capable of writing and producing misogynistic pieces but they themselves may not be misogynistic. Just as writers can write things that are racist but they themselves may not be racist.
Intention really has nothing to do with it. If one subscribes to the critical theory of reader response it does not matter what the writer intended, it is what the reader sees. And in the case of the Killing Joke, what do we see? A woman shot, stripped naked and then photographed. A woman who has no agency in the violent act. A woman who is robbed of even a POV of her own shooting (we see her react to Joker but the viewpoint then moves to the third person.) And, of course, a woman who is not shot because of who she is, but who her father is. I and many other people find it hard to not look at those panels and others in the book and not see an undercurrent of dislike towards women. Now, add in the framework of how the panels got on the page (Len Wein's verbal approval to Alan Moore that he could "cripple the bitch) and you can see even further why there is a belief that the book, indeed, does have misogynistic overtones.



Last edited by dcwomenkickingass on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : early morning not enough coffee)

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18 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:05 pm

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This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Alex DeWitt, a statistic of being in a relationship with a hero.

What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.

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19 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:19 pm

Demonweasel

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G_Zatara wrote:This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Yeah, this wasn't really a "line of duty" kind of thing. I remember when I first read it, already knowing that Barbara got shot and paralyzed, being surprised at how random it was and how much she wasn't really in the story at all, even after the fact. There wasn't anything heroic about her injury, and that's the point.

G_Zatara wrote:
What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.

I think a lot of people were pissed off by Identity Crisis for a lot of reasons, and I'm pretty sure that was one of them. People are still upset about the Dibny's for sure.


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20 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:29 pm

G_Zatara

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Joker is a sociopath.

Random acts of violence is sort of his thing. No, it wasn't in the line of duty, but I mean would it have mattered if it was anybody else by Babs?

I mean Selina had her heart-ripped out, that's more contemporary. Violence against anybody is always tragic, but something that is all part of the game now. I mean shit, Black Adam fucking scrambled Psycho Pirates brains in battle. How many times have Terra died now?

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21 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:29 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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Demonweasel wrote:
G_Zatara wrote:This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Yeah, this wasn't really a "line of duty" kind of thing. I remember when I first read it, already knowing that Barbara got shot and paralyzed, being surprised at how random it was and how much she wasn't really in the story at all, even after the fact. There wasn't anything heroic about her injury, and that's the point.

G_Zatara wrote:
What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.

I think a lot of people were pissed off by Identity Crisis for a lot of reasons, and I'm pretty sure that was one of them. People are still upset about the Dibny's for sure.

Of course we are. I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the various injustices done to women in comics (but neither is it my job to educate everyone else on them either, do your own homework, there are plenty of resources out there). If you haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about other cases, please bring them to light. That's the point. And I'm sorry but what does "'nuff said." even imply, aside from gross ignorance and a refusal to acknowledge that the problem is much greater than people generally perceive, and that there *are* discussions to be had outside of just my problems with TKJ? That was disappointing, especially coming from someone who claims to be a comics fan.


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22 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:40 pm

G_Zatara

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http://blog.newsarama.com/2010/10/14/folie-a-deux-by-dustin-nguyen/

Sorry you're not a fan, Meg and nameless tumblr person, but other people and legions of readers do like TKJ and find nothing wrong with it, because they aren't looking for anything.

You don't need to worry about educating people, who are quite educated. I understand you're passionate about violence against women and whatnot, but that's nothing new. I mean shit, if you're THAT upset about the shit that goes on with DC comics, boycott.

As for me, I can go to sleep knowing that none of the contents that happened in the stories I read never happened. They are props. Pieces on a chessboard to tell a story. All the characters are in everything.

If you want good female-centric comics, go to Top Cow.

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23 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:58 pm

G_Zatara wrote:This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Alex DeWitt, a statistic of being in a relationship with a hero.

What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.
Your theory doesn't align with fact. The Joker had no idea who Barbara was. She was shot because she was someone's daughter. Her role wasn't as superhero. It was to create new story beats for the relationship of Gordon and Batman and Batman and the Joker.

And describing Alex as a statistic is actually a very good pithy way of encapsulating the WiR. She wasn't killed to drive her story forward, she was killed to drive forward Kyle's story.

Now throwing Jean and Sue into the mix is interesting. If you look at IC each of their stories is ancillary to those of Ray and Ralph. And the killing of Sue by Jean isn't even really the center of the plot of IC, is it? The key plot is the rape of Sue Dibny because it resulted in the mindwiping of Batman and Light which has driven DC comics until this day and was the impetus for Infinite Crisis. So really the killing of Jean by Sue was just a McGuffin. It was done primarily to drive the storyline of the entire DCU forward. So really if you look at it the killing of Jean by Sue was actually the rare double fridging. Jean was transformed into a "crazy bitch" in order to murder Sue so the mindwiping could be revealed. Good selection.

And here's a question for you in regards to your original statement. How many female characters have killed or injured male characters in order to drive their own story arc forward? I can assure it is not many. Same with gays.

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24 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:00 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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Apparently you've been sucking on too much Erik Larsen peen, if you can honestly dismiss with a straight face someone who gives a shit about how women are depicted in comics (or any medium, for that matter). And to use a discussion that I care about to link back to your own blog so you can show off the picture you got to write a paragraph of copy for is remarkably unimpressive, I don't even care if it is a picture I've already seen by Dustin.


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25 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:01 pm

G_Zatara

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"She wasn't killed to drive her story forward, she was killed to drive forward Kyle's story."

In a book called Green Lantern, I would hope the story was about Kyle.

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