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PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion

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126 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:35 am

Rath99

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Big Poppa Nick wrote:
Rath99 wrote:Gentlemen..you won't and can never get it. Meg speaks from a POV that we can never understand. Whether you see misogyny or not isn't the point. She does. That’s it. Just as from my perspective (being Latino) I see racism where other folks won't. A little news flash there is quite a bit of it in comics (see JMS' Superman).

So the best we can do is listen and respect her viewpoint and understand that there is now way we can feel how she feels about it.
Invalidating any argument and saying that because I'm not black, a woman, Latino, or gay, I can't ever understand an issue from an intellectual standpoint really doesn't sit well with me. Because I don't belong to a selected minority doesn't mean I can't empathize or understand a person's point of view is bogus.

I think I've listened to everyone's viewpoint, and have a differing opinion. I don't need to cower in a corner of an argument because I'm not female, and should be afraid that my opinion would offend a woman.

Nick I respect your opinion 100% and you have a right to voice it. I believe that there are certain thing that are highly emotional that facts and figures aren't able to explain. Life expierence dictates how we veiw a lot of thing and I believe that while you may be able to empathize you can never truly understand. That's just how I feel.

That being said I do like TKJ...but I can see why others don't like it.


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127 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:39 am

jaydee74 wrote:What they said. Totally agreed with Spazzy. I also enjoyed the Killing Joke. I thought it was an interesting story especially in it's time and I do think it's aged well. However, I completely see Meg's point of view on this. Hearing what she said on the podcast, I re-read the book and got her points. There's no need to bring in facts or figures into this. This is how she feels. It's her right to feel that way and she shouldn't be attacked for that.

I don't feel like I've attacked anyone. If somebody expresses an opinion and I don't agree with aspects of it, and this is a thread for discussion of the topic, I don't see where I'm out of line for expressing my own thoughts on the subject.


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128 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:40 am

jaydee74

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Rath99 wrote:Nick I respect your opinion 100% and you have a right to voice it. I believe that there are certain thing that are highly emotional that facts and figures aren't able to explain. Life expierence dictates how we veiw a lot of thing and I believe that while you may be able to empathize you can never truly understand. That's just how I feel.

That being said I do like TKJ...but I can see why others don't like it.
Well said.

Big Poppa Nick wrote:
jaydee74 wrote:What they said. Totally agreed with Spazzy. I also enjoyed the Killing Joke. I thought it was an interesting story especially in it's time and I do think it's aged well. However, I completely see Meg's point of view on this. Hearing what she said on the podcast, I re-read the book and got her points. There's no need to bring in facts or figures into this. This is how she feels. It's her right to feel that way and she shouldn't be attacked for that.

I don't feel like I've attacked anyone. If somebody expresses an opinion and I don't agree with aspects of it, and this is a thread for discussion of the topic, I don't see where I'm out of line for expressing my own thoughts on the subject.
I don't think I was specifically calling anyone out in what I was saying. It was a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular.

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129 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:49 am

jaydee74 wrote:
Rath99 wrote:Nick I respect your opinion 100% and you have a right to voice it. I believe that there are certain thing that are highly emotional that facts and figures aren't able to explain. Life expierence dictates how we veiw a lot of thing and I believe that while you may be able to empathize you can never truly understand. That's just how I feel.

That being said I do like TKJ...but I can see why others don't like it.
Well said.

I can respect your opinion also.

Big Poppa Nick wrote:
jaydee74 wrote:What they said. Totally agreed with Spazzy. I also enjoyed the Killing Joke. I thought it was an interesting story especially in it's time and I do think it's aged well. However, I completely see Meg's point of view on this. Hearing what she said on the podcast, I re-read the book and got her points. There's no need to bring in facts or figures into this. This is how she feels. It's her right to feel that way and she shouldn't be attacked for that.

I don't feel like I've attacked anyone. If somebody expresses an opinion and I don't agree with aspects of it, and this is a thread for discussion of the topic, I don't see where I'm out of line for expressing my own thoughts on the subject.
I don't think I was specifically calling anyone out in what I was saying. It was a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular.

Sorry if I came off dickish. I feel like some of what I said was misinterpreted, and wanted to just point out the fact that I in fact didn't call anybody anything or disparage anybody for their opinion. And for some reason the quote tags aren't working right for me.


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130 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:30 am

jaydee74

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No worries dude.

I found this on the Batman Wiki site and you can read for yourself that people are very mixed on this.
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Barbara_Gordon

Batman:The Killing Joke (1988)
The Joker critically injures Barbara Gordon in Batman: The Killing Joke. During the early eighties, Batman editors sporadically put Batgirl into retirement; the character resumed her role for special cases. In 1988, Alan Moore discussed writing The Killing Joke with editor Len Wein, and the two agreed that Barbara Gordon, currently in retirement, was disposable enough for the character’s career to come to a permanent end. Although events in The Killing Joke exert a great impact on the character, the story has little to do with Gordon. She is deployed as a plot device to cement the Joker’s vendetta against Commissioner Gordon and Batman. Critical reception of The Killing Joke has been mixed — while some commentators have been appalled by the treatment of Barbara Gordon, others have regarded The Killing Joke as one of the greatest Batman stories of all time.

Despite Moore's writing, Valerie D'Orazio, a former editor at Acclaim Comics and DC Comics has denounced the book, citing "It doesn't take the perspective of a woman into account. It doesn't take into account that some women might be so very disgusted with the book [and] what happens to Barbara Gordon in it." In response, Laura Hudson, Senior editor of Comic Foundry Magazine comments, "You’re supposed to be disgusted with what happens to Barbara Gordon...because it’s disgusting...As a woman and as an adult, I can deal with fictional characters performing reprehensible acts towards women... When they’re used not gratuitously but for a purpose, as I believe they were in The Killing Joke, that's exactly what they're supposed to do."

The Joker’s aggravated assault of Barbara Gordon has become a classic example of Women in Refrigerators syndrome, in which “severe injury or death of a female comic book character [occurs] as a means to antagonize a male superhero.” Following the release of the graphic novel, comic book editor and writer Kim Yale discussed how distasteful she found the treatment of Barbara Gordon with her husband, fellow comic writer John Ostrander. Rather than allow the character to fall into obscurity, the two decided to revive her as a character living with a disability.

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131 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:31 am

G_Zatara

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This conversation reminded me of Babs' "quote".

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132 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:34 am

TENIME_art

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Spazzy wrote:you're gonna get it (imagine thats a knife...)

Ow! Your palm!

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133 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:36 am

Spazzy

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I'm used to it..

*crazy eyes*


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134 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:46 am

TENIME_art

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Shocked

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135 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:32 pm

Heytherejeffro

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Bane didn't break BatGIRL's back (you know, for icing on the cake), Doomsday didn't murder SuperGIRL, and GL didn't snap SinestrA's (or whatever the hell retard-female characters from GL) neck.

Come to think of it, nothing bad has ever happened to a woman in a Green Lantern comic, especially in the early to mid-90's.

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136 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:19 pm

BlueMaxx

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137 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:43 pm

jaydee74

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Heytherejeffro wrote:Bane didn't break BatGIRL's back (you know, for icing on the cake), Doomsday didn't murder SuperGIRL, and GL didn't snap SinestrA's (or whatever the hell retard-female characters from GL) neck.

Come to think of it, nothing bad has ever happened to a woman in a Green Lantern comic, especially in the early to mid-90's.

Maybe not in the early to mid 90's but in Action Comics Weekly #601 (1988):

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138 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:48 pm

Mnemosis

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If anyone thought I was attacking Meg, I certainly didn't mean it that way. As Nick said, I was voicing MY view on the discussion. I shouldn't have said what I did to Thacher, and things got out of hand after that. We've dealt with it. Move along.

BlueMaxx wrote:

LMFAO!

jaydee74 wrote:
Heytherejeffro wrote:Bane didn't break BatGIRL's back (you know, for icing on the cake), Doomsday didn't murder SuperGIRL, and GL didn't snap SinestrA's (or whatever the hell retard-female characters from GL) neck.

Come to think of it, nothing bad has ever happened to a woman in a Green Lantern comic, especially in the early to mid-90's.

Maybe not in the early to mid 90's but...

Jaydee, pretty sure he was sarcastically referring to the original woman in a refrigerator.

But Jeff, I have to argue the feminist perspective on this one... When Bane's back was broken or Superman was killed, it was done a) for sales and b) with the intent to eventually have them overcome the injury (or, uh, death) just to show how badass they were. That WASN'T the point in crippling Barbara. Crippling Barbara was done to affect Bruce and Jim. BUT...

Barbara also wasn't a leading character. That IS what this boils down to, for me. As a supporting cast member, she's there to be used (as male supporting cast members are) to change the status quo for the hero.

Now, one question has been asked repeatedly - why is it that Barbara was stripped naked and photographed? Why doesn't that sort of thing happen to male heroes? The feminist point of view seems to be that comics glorify this sort of behavior. I'd argue the exact opposite. The Joker isn't a role model. He's the kind of sick son of a bitch that society creates. Male characters aren't stripped naked and photographed because how often does that sort of thing happen in real life? Women are violently/sexually assaulted far more often than men; why in increasingly dark and realistic comic books would you expect to see the opposite happen? Would it really be a moment of female empowerment to turn a page and see Star Sapphire stripping Hal Jordan naked and raping him? Or would women complain that she was being written as a "psycho bitch." The fact of the matter is, there's no "win" here. Male on female abuse appears the way it does in comics because art is imitating life. It is not glorified. As the one source in the wikipedia article says, the assault on Barbara is MEANT to be brutal and disgusting. It is meant to create a real sense of danger for the characters, it is meant to show the depravity of the Joker, and in doing all of that, it shows how dark and horrifying life can be for a woman. Not because women are weak, but because women are targeted.


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139 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:52 pm

Joshua

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Mnemosis wrote:If anyone thought I was attacking Meg, I certainly didn't mean it that way.
I never thought you were attacking Meg. I thought you were attacking Thatchter. tongue

Too soon?

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140 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:55 pm

Mnemosis

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Maybe.


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141 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:31 pm

Heytherejeffro

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Mnemosis wrote:Not because women are weak, but because women are targeted.
Although both are good reasons.

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142 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:27 pm

Silent K

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I think it's about time to unload into this thread's stomach and then take lurid pictures of it.


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