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PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion

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26 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:02 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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dcwomenkickingass wrote:
G_Zatara wrote:This is ridiculous.

Male or female. Straight or gay. Being a hero has consequences. Babs was no different.

Alex DeWitt, a statistic of being in a relationship with a hero.

What? So female on female violence is okay? Because I haven't heard ANYTHING ranty about Sue Dibny being fucking murdered by Jean Palmer.

'nuff said.
Your theory doesn't align with fact. The Joker had no idea who Barbara was. She was shot because she was someone's daughter. Her role wasn't as superhero. It was to create new story beats for the relationship of Gordon and Batman and Batman and the Joker.

And describing Alex as a statistic is actually a very good pithy way of encapsulating the WiR. She wasn't killed to drive her story forward, she was killed to drive forward Kyle's story.

Now throwing Jean and Sue into the mix is interesting. If you look at IC each of their stories is ancillary to those of Ray and Ralph. And the killing of Sue by Jean isn't even really the center of the plot of IC, is it? The key plot is the rape of Sue Dibny because it resulted in the mindwiping of Batman and Light which has driven DC comics until this day and was the impetus for Infinite Crisis. So really the killing of Jean by Sue was just a McGuffin. It was done primarily to drive the storyline of the entire DCU forward. So really if you look at it the killing of Jean by Sue was actually the rare double fridging. Jean was transformed into a "crazy bitch" in order to murder Sue so the mindwiping could be revealed. Good selection.

And here's a question for you in regards to your original statement. How many female characters have killed or injured male characters in order to drive their own story arc forward? I can assure it is not many. Same with gays.


Your words. I wish I could put them on posters and slather the world with them.


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27 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:11 pm

Joshua

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I wish male super-heroes would show more skin. Maybe some ball cleavage.

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28 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:12 pm

Spazzy

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Joshua wrote:I wish male super-heroes would show more skin. Maybe some ball cleavage.

We could see if they are shaved or not! Love it.


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29 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:12 pm

G_Zatara

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At least she/he is coming off as rational.

And like I said, no, he [Joker] didn't know who Babs was, it was a RANDOM CRIME, as is the case with most of Joker's crimes. It just happened Babs was a popular character.

And of course Meg would make a poster of someone else's words since once she feels cornered results to pissing other people off and mud-slinging and makes any opposition seem inferior to her own, so yes, I'm glad she has found a voice for her. Violence sucks. I will spare you the story of my violent childhood and sexual molestation past, but you know what...shit happens. It's life. Except for Babs, because she's two-dimensional. If you look for something long enough, you're going to find it in anything.

To quote Ron Marz, who is about to join this conversation on here since I'll spare Meg's pwning on twitter: "Sure, there's misogyny in comics, just like everywhere else. I don't see it as pervasive, or some insidious plot to keep the ladies down, as some pro-feminists would have you think.

I'll tell ya one thing -- all the male characters I've killed off or maimed, nobody said a word."

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30 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:15 pm

Joshua

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Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:I wish male super-heroes would show more skin. Maybe some ball cleavage.

We could see if they are shaved or not! Love it.
Namor is probably smooth as silk, but I imagine Hawkman's nutsack feels like a bear-skin rug.

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31 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:16 pm

Spazzy

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Joshua wrote:
Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:I wish male super-heroes would show more skin. Maybe some ball cleavage.

We could see if they are shaved or not! Love it.
Namor is probably smooth as silk, but I imagine Hawkman's nutsack feels like a bear-skin rug.

Interesting choice of characters to place that with. Poor Mockingbird.


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32 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:17 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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Man, I sure do feel cornered and helpless and all! So glad you pointed that out. I think my favorite part is that the majority of your post was slandering me...all to prove the point of how my argument is invalid because of...slander.

What were you saying again? Something arrogant and incoherent?

And Lord yes, how dare I ask the advice of someone more knowledgeable than myself on the subject to weigh in? That would just be dumb.

And seriously Josh, I TOTALLY love to see some Batjunk, not gonna lie.


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33 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:18 pm

Joshua

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Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:
Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:I wish male super-heroes would show more skin. Maybe some ball cleavage.

We could see if they are shaved or not! Love it.
Namor is probably smooth as silk, but I imagine Hawkman's nutsack feels like a bear-skin rug.

Interesting choice of characters to place that with. Poor Mockingbird.
Hawkman, not Hawkeye. I imagine Hawkeye trims, but doesn't shave.

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34 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:19 pm

Spazzy

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Joshua wrote:
Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:
Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:I wish male super-heroes would show more skin. Maybe some ball cleavage.

We could see if they are shaved or not! Love it.
Namor is probably smooth as silk, but I imagine Hawkman's nutsack feels like a bear-skin rug.

Interesting choice of characters to place that with. Poor Mockingbird.
Hawkman, not Hawkeye. I imagine Hawkeye trims, but doesn't shave.

I cant read, SHIT!

Poork Hawkgirl.. and stuff. is what I meant..

Fucking school work.


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35 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:20 pm

G_Zatara wrote:http://blog.newsarama.com/2010/10/14/folie-a-deux-by-dustin-nguyen/

Sorry you're not a fan, Meg and nameless tumblr person, but other people and legions of readers do like TKJ and find nothing wrong with it, because they aren't looking for anything.

You don't need to worry about educating people, who are quite educated. I understand you're passionate about violence against women and whatnot, but that's nothing new. I mean shit, if you're THAT upset about the shit that goes on with DC comics, boycott.

As for me, I can go to sleep knowing that none of the contents that happened in the stories I read never happened. They are props. Pieces on a chessboard to tell a story. All the characters are in everything.

If you want good female-centric comics, go to Top Cow.
What I find most amusing is your idea is that we shouldn't be moved by TKJ because it isn't real? And the idea we find flaw with the piece because we are "looking for something"? Essentially you just undermined centuries of critical thought and theory. All creative content is open to interpretation. All creative content must be able to stand up to a critical eye. If you are going to approach content with the idea that anything that counters your take is okay because it's not real, or its flaws are something that others go looking for, you are taking a simplistic approach. And as for your suggestion to go to Top Cow, I'll continue to read DC thank you. I am not looking for "female-centic" comics. Requesting that comics treat women with the same dignity and respect as males isn't looking for female centric comics it is looking for "human centric" comics.

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36 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:20 pm

Joshua

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WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And seriously Josh, I TOTALLY love to see some Batjunk, not gonna lie.
To say that I was disappointed when Batman and Robin didn't get it on in Batman XXX would be a gross understatement.

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37 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:21 pm

Spazzy

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Joshua wrote:
WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And seriously Josh, I TOTALLY love to see some Batjunk, not gonna lie.
To say that I was disappointed when Batman and Robin didn't get it on in Batman XXX would be a gross understatement.

Shocked

lol!


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38 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:22 pm

Joshua

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Spazzy wrote:
I cant read, SHIT!

Poork Hawkgirl.. and stuff. is what I meant..

Fucking school work.
Poor Hawkgirl nothing! She strikes me as the type of chick that'd be like, YOU'RE GOING TO MOUTH ON MY PUBES AND YOU'RE GOING TO LIKE IT. Turnabout is fair play, I say.

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39 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:23 pm

Joshua

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Spazzy wrote:
Joshua wrote:
WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
And seriously Josh, I TOTALLY love to see some Batjunk, not gonna lie.
To say that I was disappointed when Batman and Robin didn't get it on in Batman XXX would be a gross understatement.

Shocked

lol!
Don't misunderstand me, I have no intrinsic desire to actually see two dudes cornhole each other, but it just seemed like such an obvious pairing.

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40 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:24 pm

Spazzy

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Hahah this little conversation has really made my day better. Thanks Josh.


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41 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:26 pm

G_Zatara

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well obviously DC is doing something wrong. Your tumblr name embodies all the kick ass women (more than any company on the planet) on the label, yet you damn the company at a whole when something bad happens to female characters.

it's like you're half-assing your anger.

were you pissed when Batman had HIS back broke?

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42 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:27 pm

Joshua

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G_Zatara wrote:
were you pissed when Batman had HIS back broke?
I was, but only because I thought Bane was a really hardcore lesbian at the time.

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43 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:28 pm

G_Zatara

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pwnage is a harsh word, sorry to deter my language to 12 year olds.



Boobs.

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44 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:31 pm

G_Zatara

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If any story in which something bad happens to a woman is misogyny, then "Romeo and Juliet" and "Hamlet" should top the list. Oh, and the Bible.

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45 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:35 pm

G_Zatara wrote:well obviously DC is doing something wrong. Your tumblr name embodies all the kick ass women (more than any company on the planet) on the label, yet you damn the company at a whole when something bad happens to female characters.

it's like you're half-assing your anger.

were you pissed when Batman had HIS back broke?

I believe we have been discussing The Killing Joke, correct? And two other pieces, Green Lantern and IC, that you brought up. What does that have to do with my blog? What does that have to do with hundreds of other stories and comics that DC has published and that I've written about?
I am going to disengage with you because I frankly find it hard to follow your thoughts and arguments because you jump from one thing to another. As evidence, what does Bane breaking Batman's back have to do with anything? It was a great Batman story (alright OK, I'm not a big fan of KnightQuest) and if I remember correctly Batman was an agent of his own story and recovered.




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46 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:36 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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Lan, you continue to miss the point by your refusal to simply see the staggering difference between one type of violence from another. What happened to Babs in TKJ is NOT what happened to Bruce in Knightfall. To say they're the same is to grossly oversimplify the nature violence plays in a violent medium. To try and derail the argument by pointing out how many times men get brutally tortured, raped, killed, or otherwise for the sake of a story-telling device is eventually going to bite you in the ass because the numbers are skewed in favor of the opposite gender.

And of course I'll stick with DC. I fucking love the Women of DC. I will fight for them all the time, they are fantastic characters. Not once have I said, I HATE DC BECAUSE OF BLAH BLAH BLAH. Every company has it's drawbacks. It's not just DC; it's Marvel, it's TopCow, it's Image, it's every publication, every source of media on the planet, that's how deeply unfair treatment of women (and minorities) is ingrained in our culture. Comics just happens to be what I tend to care deeply about. So I won't abide quietly when a writer, or an artist, or an editor allows them to be treated as anything less than human.


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47 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:37 pm

G_Zatara

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so we discussed that violence on anybody is bad.

Got it.

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48 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:46 pm

G_Zatara

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"And of course I'll stick with DC. I fucking love the Women of DC. I will fight for them all the time, they are fantastic characters. Not once have I said, I HATE DC BECAUSE OF BLAH BLAH BLAH. Every company has it's drawbacks. It's not just DC; it's Marvel, it's TopCow, it's Image, it's every publication, every source of media on the planet, that's how deeply unfair treatment of women (and minorities) is ingrained in our culture. Comics just happens to be what I tend to care deeply about. So I won't abide quietly when a writer, or an artist, or an editor allows them to be treated as anything less than human."

See, now that I get.

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49 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:48 pm

G_Zatara

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Were you angry at Bruce how they treated him like God since he recovered from a much more fatal blow, than Babs who is still feeling the consequences of her wounds?

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50 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:55 pm

G_Zatara

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ps: both my Eisner and I love women.

I also love TKJ and I hope that doesn't make me an asshole.

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