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PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion

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51 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:57 pm

G_Zatara

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On that note, I, too, hate the 3D craze.

Spoiler:
Batjunk

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52 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:02 pm

Joshua

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WonderWoman2.0 wrote:how many times men get brutally...raped
I fully support the raping of men in comics. Also, less Axe body spray advertisements in comic books, more Rape-Axe advertisements.

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53 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:13 pm

G_Zatara

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Make it happen, Josh.

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54 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:14 pm

WonderWoman2.0

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G_Zatara wrote:ps: both my Eisner and I love women.

I also love TKJ and I hope that doesn't make me an asshole.

Loving TKJ doesn't make you an asshole. You do that just fine on your own. :| And yeah, 3D movies. Lame.


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55 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:21 pm

G_Zatara

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If I make myself an asshole, does that mean you make yourself a dramatic bitch?

Not saying you are, just laying out the mathematical proportion.

Lan:Asshole::Meg:?

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56 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:23 pm

G_Zatara

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I don't think I'm an asshole, though.

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57 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:24 pm

G_Zatara

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so if we can both be vehement comic fans, that'd be great and we can find some level of equal ground.

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58 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:36 pm

dmahoney

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I couldn't find a smiley for "oh my God my e-mail can't take this anymore", so I'm going with this one:

ARRR!

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59 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:46 pm

Demonweasel

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G_Zatara wrote:I don't think I'm an asshole, though.

I think the arguments against TKJ are pretty well-laid out in the thread and on the show. Putting your foot down and just going "Nope, I don't see it & you're wrong for thinking it," plus waving an Eisner that you won (as part of a group, not individually), plus casually throwing out the suggestion of personal trauma to bolster what passes for your argument doesn't really do much to prove that you aren't.


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60 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:25 pm

G_Zatara

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I don't think I resorted to being mean-spirited though. Don't plan on name-calling like some sort of cornered Republican that's run out of facts. I didn't resort to twitter or bringing it the debate/argument/vent to the public. But it just seems can't reason with someone who's not seeking dialogue but a way to try to embarrass other people. When it got the point where it wasn't a debate anymore but trash-talking and got out of hand, it makes this site look bad. Like CBR bad. I can at least admit I was immature for a second (hello, hangover).

I don't have to explain the difference between a feminist and female chauvinism. Two different things.

Arrogant at times, though? Yeah, I'll easily call myself that.

Honestly though, I consider myself considerate (though praising yourself comes across as arrogant at times) and felt singled out in the situation because I wouldn't back down.

3D is still too expensive.

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61 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:33 pm

Spazzy

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Personally, I think this has gone on long enough and needs to be placed in its own thread or something. While people are entitled to their opinion, I don't feel that name calling is professional or really called for. I dont feel/think that anyone is an asshole for expressing how they feel about something, or trying to defend their opinion.

Seriously, play nice. Dont make me get stabby.


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62 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:34 pm

Rath99

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Spazzy wrote:Personally, I think this has gone on long enough and needs to be placed in its own thread or something. While people are entitled to their opinion, I don't feel that name calling is professional or really called for. I dont feel/think that anyone is an asshole for expressing how they feel about something, or trying to defend their opinion.

Seriously, play nice. Dont make me get stabby.

Agreed...and you've been warned Smile


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63 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:39 pm

G_Zatara

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Yes, maam.

I've seen the knife.

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64 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:43 pm

dmahoney

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Spazzy wrote:Personally, I think this has gone on long enough

A thousand times yes.

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65 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:45 pm

Spazzy

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Spazzy is wise!

*shakes fist*

WISE I SAY...

on another note, I totally emailed Gunnell and he has yet to respond.. I know hes online. I SEE HIM ONLINE... *gets stabby*


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66 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:45 pm

BlueMaxx

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Spazzy wrote:

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67 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:46 pm

Spazzy

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yes


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68 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:52 pm

G_Zatara

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If Lisa was a DnD character, she'd be Leesa Everblade, Sword of the Heavens and Wrath of the Crown

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69 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:58 pm

Spazzy

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I I love you it! its perfect! BWAHAHA


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70 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:40 am

Mnemosis

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I REALLY hate to poke the sleeping bear, but:

I think the BIGGEST reason for the WiR phenomenon is that the majority of ongoing characters are males. Sure, there are longtime female characters, but aside from Wonder Woman, how many of them have seen continuous publication? And how many of them started as their own character, rather than as a supporting character to someone else?

My point is this. You hurt the supporting characters directly to get at the heroes. If the majority of leading characters are straight males created at a time when it was perfectly acceptable for the majority of leading characters to be straight males, then it stands to reason that a good percentage of their loved ones/supporting cast are going to be females. So now, today, we're working with well-established leading characters like Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-Man, etc etc etc...

Why did Mariko die?
Why did Gwen Stacy die?
Why did Supergirl die?

Because they were supporting characters/loved ones to the male leads, and there needed to be a dramatic punch to the gut of the male lead, and so the supporting cast member/loved one was killed off. It's simple statistics and logic. Does it suck? Sure, I guess. But it's not misogyny. It's story telling, working with what exists.

I'm not even listing Barbara, because her being shot as a loved one of a leading character was the same as Jason Todd being killed as the loved one of a leading character. Neither saved the day. Both were unceremoniously put down by the Joker as a means for a writer to effect change within the life of the leading character - Batman. Whether you like TKJ or not is totally a matter of personal opinion. I've never read it, personally. Didn't care to. But the point is, this is why supporting characters exist - to create drama within the lives of the leads. The lion's share of supporting characters are women, because the lion's share of established leads are men.

So yes, you're absolutely right when you say something like "This sort of thing happens to female characters more often than male characters" but you're not considering why.

It's statistics. Not misogyny.

Remember, before the Green Goblin ever snapped Gwen Stacy's neck, Uncle Ben ate a bullet just so Peter could learn a lesson about responsibility. He wasn't being a hero. He was just serving his purpose as stage dressing. To imply that female supporting characters should be above that, simply because there's been more of them over the years, is asking for special treatment in the name of equality, which has always confounded me to no end.

Next month, we can introduce Tony Stark's long lost brother, whom he can bond with, so that the next time we need to hurt Iron Man, we can attack a male instead of a female.


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71 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:50 am

Mnemosis

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All I'm trying to say is, supporting characters exist to affect the lead characters. When a lead character has been published for a long time, you need to come up with ways to "rock their world." You can have Lois marry Clark, you can have Lois leave Clark, or you can put Lois in peril. Those are your three major options there. And the fact of the matter is, within the Superman mythos, Lois doesn't exist to be her own character any more than Pa Kent does. Lois and Jonathan both exist to affect Clark. And, because it would be creepy if they did it the other way around, Lois married Clark and Jonathan died. But if nothing ever happened to/with either of them, what would be the point for them to exist?

And, to get back to the point that I brought up but never addressed... there aren't many female lead characters with long publishing histories. Therefore, even when you DO need to do something different with someone like Catwoman, you still have options, because she doesn't have 500 plus issues under her belt. You don't HAVE to take a loved one away from her yet, there are still other directions to explore with the character before taking that step.


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72 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:12 am

WonderWoman2.0

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I'm too tired to argue everything that I think is wrong with what you posted. Just know that I think there's a lot wrong with what you just posted.


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73 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:35 am

Mnemosis

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oO

Aight. If at some point you figure it out, let me know.

I'm not going to say something like the ORIGINAL WiR item isn't way overboard, because it is, and that's why THAT is the term. That said, I just really feel like a lot of the sentiment out there is very emotional (understandably so) and as a result disregards the simple facts and logic behind why this is happening the way it is happening.


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74 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:37 am

Mnemosis

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And I honestly believe that, if the tables were turned and the majority of long established leads in comic books were females, their male supporting cast members would be the ones in constant peril.


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75 Re: PrincessCast: The Killing Joke Discussion on Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:08 am

I understand some fans outrage against what happened to Barbara, but lets be honest, It's not the worst violence in even a Bat-book.

Jason Todd was a teenager. DC put up a public vote on whether to kill off a teenage boy, and then did so in the most violent and mocking way possible. Jason Todd had no redemption, and still hasn't to this day. He's been shown to have been broken by the experience, where as Barbara has grown, adapted, and dare I say been a stronger character since her tragedy. I'm not excusing the initial violence, so much as saying that the handling of her since then has been superior than what Jason Todd has gotten.

Barbara Gordon has the most heroic moment in The Killing Joke IMHO, as she is in the hospital, just having been crippled by the Joker, and her concern is for her father and not herself. She doesn't come close to breaking, as her father does, and she doesn't sit there yucking it up with someone who has caused so much violence and death in his life like Bruce does.

DC doesn't even have the worst treatment of female characters in comics, where I'll say that Marvel does. Two of the worst cases of violence against women come from someone who I've liked for a long time: Kevin Smith. What he does to Karen Page and more recently the Black Cat, IMHO is inexcusable. I also didn't see female fans doing crazy over Angel's origin in New X-Men. I really have a problem with people calling out DC on their treatment of women in comics when they don't really discuss either of these two instances. Marvel's female characters are treated far worse than DC's, and to me it's sad that the DC stuff gets more attention because those characters are more popular.


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