Gods vs Marvels

I just want to take this opportunity to start a thread on the topic that Fresh03 and I have been talking about a lot lately. This has to do with the theme of gods and the current marvel heroes. We have been piecing together a lot of information and hints layed out in books like Incredible Hercules, Mighty Avengers, Agents of Atlas, Siege, Necrosha, and Thor, maybe even Doctor Voodoo soon.

Recently in comics there was a challenge made by US Agent in Incredible Hercules that there is only one god and that the other gods are just people with powers. Athena actually confirmed this in defense of the statement to the current Prince of Power Herc.

Asgard is the target of Doom, Loki, Osbourne and much more. We see doom trying to figure out what makes the Asgardian gods...well gods. Talking with Fresh about my human host questions that I posed in the Thor thread, I am having to guess that at one time all the Gods were at one time human, and that in order to stay gods they must eat the golden apples that are on Asgard.

This made me think about Ambrosia and how the Greek/Roman gods use that as a form of sustinence. ARe these items part of the main target by the diabolical evil doers. We know Thor had to be Human, we know that Herc was half god at one time. We don't know how long ago the father gods of all the religions were around in marvel continuity. Even the Skrulls had their gods that faught the Pantheons of Earth.

Selene is the oldest known MUTANT alive, she has been revered as a Goddess by a number of cultures and is now seeking what she calls accention. Kang was before Apocalypse and both of them were revered as gods by many cultures as well.

We also know that Amadeus Cho is going to replace Herc as the Prince of Power some time soon. We have also seen comments on the AGE OF MARVELS.

We have seen Olympus destroyed, we have seen Asgard destroyed and come back, and targetted to be destroyed again. When there are no more golden apples or ambrosia, or what ever else any other pantheon uses in its substite is gone, will the age of the gods be over?

We have Atlantis in the ocean as well, is there a conection coming to fruition between everything. But basically from what we are seeing the pantheons of the world being similar in many ways all be the original super heroes? They were just from an era were man had not the technology for an explination. Was Selene supposed to be a part of that Age of Gods and feel entitled, because she missed out?

Think of any god you can from any religion. Is there not a Modern Marvel hero that has the equivilant poer or ability? Is mortality the only thing that keeps them from being gods?

I don't know Fress said that there will be a story in the future that is going to elaberate further on the Age of Marvels and I'm interested to see the direction all of this is going. Putting together these puzzle pieces is what makes reading comics entertaining to begin with.

I'm sure Fresh has more to add, and I know Jerry will probably chime in with a bunch too, glad I could put this out there for the PoP!ulation to think about.

Interesting. Marvel may have its fan back if this plays out well.

BlueMaxx wrote:Interesting. Marvel may have its fan back if this plays out well.

Are you a big fan of mythology? I am, and I am stoked to see that they are attempting to do something like this. I would love to see a story that shows how all the old gods became what they are. I could see it in an archaic pre-history world that leads from the age of mans beginings. Maybe some Earth X style celestial involvment, maybe some Titan involvement. I would be rad to see that Thanos and co. are actually related to the Titans of Earth.

Love mythology. But with Marvel, Thor and Hercules are the only outlets. This could be very cool, though.

If you like this concept, pick up the Ares 2005 mini. It's hard to find, but man, it covers almost all the pantheons of Marvel that hadn't been touched before. Has to do with each pantheon trying to take power after Asguard's Ragnarok, being that that was Marvel's strongest godhood.

I love that the mythological characters in Marvel have been getting more air time lately. At first it was just the Herc title, but it's been spilling around into others now and I too hope it's leading into a cool event in the future.

Great thread and insight. I've been really liking what they've been doing with this concept in the New Olympus storyline too. The way I've always seen it is that the mythological gods in comics are basically just superhumans, either extra-dimensional or even extra-terrestrial in nature. And these different races of superhumans were separated into different pantheons and worshiped as gods at one point or another in human history. It also ties into the idea of magic and the mystic arts just being really advanced super science.

And in terms of the Marvels being based off mythological gods, I think that's definitely true both consciously and subconsciously depending on the hero. This goes back to the very beginnings of superheroes. Superman, for example, was created essentially as the American Hercules.

hrdwrkngXsoldier wrote:I just want to take this opportunity to start a thread on the topic that Fresh03 and I have been talking about a lot lately. This has to do with the theme of gods and the current marvel heroes. We have been piecing together a lot of information and hints layed out in books like Incredible Hercules, Mighty Avengers, Agents of Atlas, Siege, Necrosha, and Thor, maybe even Doctor Voodoo soon.

Recently in comics there was a challenge made by US Agent in Incredible Hercules that there is only one god and that the other gods are just people with powers. Athena actually confirmed this in defense of the statement to the current Prince of Power Herc.

Asgard is the target of Doom, Loki, Osbourne and much more. We see doom trying to figure out what makes the Asgardian gods...well gods. Talking with Fresh about my human host questions that I posed in the Thor thread, I am having to guess that at one time all the Gods were at one time human, and that in order to stay gods they must eat the golden apples that are on Asgard.

This made me think about Ambrosia and how the Greek/Roman gods use that as a form of sustinence. ARe these items part of the main target by the diabolical evil doers. We know Thor had to be Human, we know that Herc was half god at one time. We don't know how long ago the father gods of all the religions were around in marvel continuity. Even the Skrulls had their gods that faught the Pantheons of Earth.

Selene is the oldest known MUTANT alive, she has been revered as a Goddess by a number of cultures and is now seeking what she calls accention. Kang was before Apocalypse and both of them were revered as gods by many cultures as well.

We also know that Amadeus Cho is going to replace Herc as the Prince of Power some time soon. We have also seen comments on the AGE OF MARVELS.

We have seen Olympus destroyed, we have seen Asgard destroyed and come back, and targetted to be destroyed again. When there are no more golden apples or ambrosia, or what ever else any other pantheon uses in its substite is gone, will the age of the gods be over?

We have Atlantis in the ocean as well, is there a conection coming to fruition between everything. But basically from what we are seeing the pantheons of the world being similar in many ways all be the original super heroes? They were just from an era were man had not the technology for an explination. Was Selene supposed to be a part of that Age of Gods and feel entitled, because she missed out?

Think of any god you can from any religion. Is there not a Modern Marvel hero that has the equivilant poer or ability? Is mortality the only thing that keeps them from being gods?

I don't know Fress said that there will be a story in the future that is going to elaberate further on the Age of Marvels and I'm interested to see the direction all of this is going. Putting together these puzzle pieces is what makes reading comics entertaining to begin with.

I'm sure Fresh has more to add, and I know Jerry will probably chime in with a bunch too, glad I could put this out there for the PoP!ulation to think about.

The point in bold kind of threw me off: Thor was born from the union of Odin and Gaea, who by al intents and purposes, predates most gods. I'm not sure how he started off "human". I know his alter ego is as such but that was created as a means to teach Thor humility. Thor is, in many ways, a mutant among the Asgardians in the same way namor is considered a mutant. If one takes into account the idea of X-ternals and so forth, the matter becomes even more complex and compelling. In any case, I think one is then compelled to wonder what place the Celestials and cosmic beings play in all of this as well.

I was talking about how Odin forced Thor to be Human. But now all the Asgardians are pretty much humans with "god" powers. I just can't wait to see what Fresh posts, I saw him new years eve and he says he has like 3 pages typed up so far to add to this thread.... hope you all don't mind reading an article. lol.

^ I'm up for it.

I'm a speed reader, bring on that wall of text!

I think fresh was talking about the gods get thier power through belief. Since the fall of various pantheons it would make sense that since beleif in the gods dwindled so to thier powers and that is how the marvel gods can be killed or hurt. That could explain the loss of omipotence.

Even looking at it that way and observing written histories and the similarities between cultures and their heroes and gods, you can analyze and know that one thing is true: "The essence of a hero has never changed, only the times and situations in which we need them."--Sean Hayes

I haven't seen any weekening of the gods in marvel though except when theya re attact at their core. Really how many people in marvel actually still worship any of them. I know that Nick Fury follows the teachings and examples of his god... that guy with a hammer. I can understand that imaginary beings in real life as far as religion and dieties go to get their power or existance simply from belief, I just don't think that it is crossing over into marvel that way.

Even Helen says that they don't believe and they don't worship so she wants to make a place where she can be a god again in continuem, but she hasn't lost any of her power from what i've seen. The only thing that she really lost on earth or that the asgardians lost on earth was credibility and political power through ruling over people. They can't get away with that now because they would just be looked at as psychopaths like Doom or Baron Mordo that are bent on power. I think the goda that are siding with Helen on this are the ones that want that type of controll back, because as of now they could just have sentry, X-man, Mr. M, Legion, Proteus, Mollecule Man, Scarlett Witch and others on that power level wipe the floor with them. This is why the Olympus group fears the Marvels.

This whole belief thing does cause me to think that this is why Mephisto is so powerful. He represents the devil or demon god in so many idfferent cultures and goes by so many different names that people still believe he is real, so he has more influence over the universe. This would also explain mistress death.... because everybody across the universe has some image of death. I don't think they would fade away though if people just started to disbelieve in them, they would just see their influence nudered much like the gods of old.

I actually have been doing allot of editing to shorten it up, sorry for taking so long...

You covered allot of what we discussed already, I do have some more to add, but for the most part the points have been made.

I remember reading Incredible Herc 138 and reading US Agent's rant about the gods being nothing more than people with Super Powers and laughing, but the more I thought on what Pak and Van Lente were saying the more it made sense, especially with what has been occurring and will be occurring in the Marvel Universe.

As pointed out, most "Gods" and mythologies have a substance or an object that confers them their immortality if not their powers and as such there are stories of those Gods either loosing their immortality or having it or a portion there of stolen from them either by hook or crook by a mortal or another God.

Wouldn't that make them mortals prior to taking said substance or donning/wielding said item? They can be born gods, but there’s nearly always a trick to their immortality, and that’s just the prevention of aging, in almost all Mythologies Gods die, period, if they were truly immortal they would be incapable of being killed.

So what happens when their source of immortality is taken away? The Norse Gods of the Marvel Universe have been shown to become weak and frail when not able to ingest the Golden Apples, just like Greek Gods do when not able to ingest Ambrosia. With the Mount Olympus of the Marvel Universe gone and destroyed have we seen Ambrosia since? With the preview image of Asgard going down in flames during Siege what will become of the Golden Apples? Now, granted there is no concrete timeline on how often the Gods must imbibe themselves with the source of their immortality, is it once a millennium, a century, a year, a month? So, a decline of the gods could be a long time off, or it could take place in the near future, none of us know for sure.

Athena herself has said that the Marvels, aka super powered beings of the modern Marvel Universe resemble gods of other pantheons, aka. Spider Man resembles Anansi, the African Spider god of stories and mischief.

Point of fact is that there are allot of non-deities that are in fact more powerful in one way or another than the “Gods” of the Marvel Universe. The Hulk is the strongest there is, he has accomplished feats of strength the Gods have not, Mr. Immortal has evolved beyond death and doesn’t require anything to maintain it, Scarlett Witch and Franklin Richards can make and unmake realties with no assistance what so ever, Reed Richards and Doom have been shown capable of outsmarting even the smartest of non Omniscient characters, etc... The list goes on and on.

If those characters were born in a different time would they have been worshiped as a god? Would they be feared as one for their powers? If the non-immortal characters were given immortality would that not put them on the same playing field as the Gods?

Blais and HXS brought up belief by followers as a qualification as well. Obviously the example of Selene and Apocalypse being worshiped as gods would be an example, both are functionally immortal (Mean gone unchecked they would be capable of living forever), both have superhuman abilities, an both garnered large followings and were called gods during a particular time, all that seems to be missing is belonging to a pantheon, or having a seat at the table so to speak. An example that springs to mind when I think of Belief in the current Marvel 616 Universe is Steve Rogers. No one in the current Marvel Era has inspired as much belief as good ol’Cap, during World War II Cap carried not only the weight of his country, but the hopes of the free world on his shoulders. In the MU’s greatest times of need there’s no one that has stepped up to the plate like Cap and been the symbol of hope that he has. So if belief is a qualification wouldn’t Steve be up for a seat at the table of the Gods in modern times?

Really you can go on and on, which I’m hoping this thread will about the qualifications and who they apply to, and question whether the Gods are truly that or merely long lived superheroes as has been implied over the last couple of years. With the upcoming Age of Heroes storyline post Siege I’m hoping that this fascinating concept will be explored as we are exploring it now in this thread.

Like where this is going more and more. Playing off of Straczynski's run on Spider-Man with Anansi, and how he is this ages storyteller, and Ares' series really pulled the stops for other pantheons. Hellstorm's last mini really brought in the gods of Egytology moreso than any other, even N'Kantu. Let alone, Voodun spirits becoming more prominent with Brother Voodoo. Which, if I remember, the creation of that series was said to set something up in the Marvel universe that hadn't been touched on too much.

Ooo, maybe The Eternals will pop up. If anything, they could be taking from Kirby's Eternals, being that every Eternal was originally seen as a god, sometimes based off of gods. Like Makkari is Mercury, the Roman, messenger god of speed, just pronounced differently over time.

Exactly Maxx, who knows what will pop up at this point.

More questions, where do the Celestials fit into the picture, they've been manipulating life in the MU since it was all essentially a petrie dish for their own fun.

Are Thanos' race of Titans related to the Titans of Mythology or infact the remaining members of that race? Their power levels and longevity certainly rival that of the various pantheons.

Throw in characters like Adam Warlock/Magus who can fuel an entire religion with their mere presence and the MU is a very complicated place with allot of questions that are just now starting to be asked.

With Amadeus Cho being named the new Prince of Power for this generation by Athena, just imagine him with some immortality, and all of the repercussions coming out of not only Assault on New Olympus, but Siege, Doom Wars, etc... makes this a very exciting time to be an inquisitive comic book fan.

Another point that comes to mind, damn did too much editing, is how we as a modern culture views god.

Pretty much no matter what religion you subscribe to God has the same definition:

God is the creator of all things, he is all seeing, all knowing, and the being we must ultimately answer to at the end of our days.

Well, that describes not one but three beings in the MU:

Eternity, the essence of all things in not only the MU, but all of the alternate dimensions as well.

The Living Tribunal, the all encompassing being that we all must answer to at the end of days.

One-Above-All, the rarely seen definition of God in the MU, even the Living Tribunal has to answer to him, strangely he looks like Jack Kirby.

So, what does that make the Gods that walk on Earth? If those three are so far past them that there is no answer for them outside of the Infinity Gauntlet, although the One-Above-All is beyond even that?

As I ponder this each day more and more, the more I come up with and the more I want writers to see this thread and take the idea and run with it, lol.

^ If I hear word of an upcoming event I'm scraping some cash together to catch up on Incredible Hercules, the only title that I passed up on that was Hulk related, and the one I regret not getting.

Very interesting insight guys.

After Siege there's The Heroic Age. We don't know exactly what it entails, but I could see a major storyline based on these god/Marvels concepts fitting into it perfectly. Maybe the fact that the Mighty Avengers are involved in Assault on New Olympus means some of this will bleed over into the Avengers books post-Siege? We have no idea what those books will be like at this point so you never know...

Well, from the interviews I've read, the Celestials, the Infinity Gems, and the nature of Gods in the MU are supposed to come up in 2010, so I guess do your best.

Bigtymin, that's why we made this thread, with what is going on in Herc/Mighty Avengers/Reign of Kings there are so many open possibilities it's ridiculous. If they put half the thought that has gone into the posts on this thread it will be an interesting time indeed.

As for Incredible Herc, honestly with X-Factor it's the best book Marvel puts out, X-Factor has better character work, but Herc has not only action but humor and the best sound effects in the business, plus all of the points you're seeing on here are being played out in that book. There are only 11 issues left, put it on your pull list and ditch Hulk, you won't regret it one bit.

^Oh don't worry its on my pull list already.

I've been hoping for the Celestials to play a major role in the Cosmic MU for some time now, possibly in the next major Cosmic event. I've got a bunch of ideas involving them and Apocalypse becoming the latest Earth-bound character to make the Cosmic jump (I think he would fit perfectly but that's a conversation for another time lol). So as you would imagine, I was very happy to see the Celestials make an appearance in the recent FF arc. I hope they're used even more in 2010, would be even better if their ties to early Earth and superhumans are explored more.

I dumped my Hulk stuff. The only technical title I'm getting is Ghost Rider, and next month that's over. So, no Marvel as of yet. That's why I'm hoping something good will happen. My pull list will be quite shrunk by Spring.

Bigtymin504 wrote:^Oh don't worry its on my pull list already.

I've been hoping for the Celestials to play a major role in the Cosmic MU for some time now, possibly in the next major Cosmic event. I've got a bunch of ideas involving them and Apocalypse becoming the latest Earth-bound character to make the Cosmic jump (I think he would fit perfectly but that's a conversation for another time lol). So as you would imagine, I was very happy to see the Celestials make an appearance in the recent FF arc. I hope they're used even more in 2010, would be even better if their ties to early Earth and superhumans are explored more.

Don't forget the Celestial from X-Men legacy that was camped over the DNA Dr. Nemisis acquired. Or the one that High Evolutionary and Magneto Labotomized to give Mags his powers back. I do see the Celestials taking upa bigger role. And last we saw Apocalypse he was carted away by the Celestials for some debt collection. Apocalypse is their bitch.. he owes, and I see him taking up some sort of role as their avatar.

Sfter reading New Mutant #9 I should point out that there was mention of Gods there as well. This issue wasn't a Necrosha tie in, which I thought felt wierd with the story not bing over yet. But the Crone Scribe was involved as well as mention of the "ELDER GODS"

This made me wonder if these were the gods of the planet before the Ages of man and the Modern Pantheons. Meaning that the new age of heroes would possible be the thrid generation.