Ask the Expert

Batman25JM wrote:What happened between Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon?

I know that they were dating a few years ago, and didn't Dick propose, but they aren't together anymore. What happened?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:What happened was Dick proposed under the idea he was going to be killed in Infinite Crisis and thus the idea of the proposal would be a mute issue. When Geoff Johns saved him, it threw a monkey wrench into the works. I don't know why it went away after he ended up living, but I understand if you read the latest Nightwing Annual by Marc Andreyko, the question would be answered.

jaydee74 wrote:I got a question and I don't know if it's ever been answered, but how did Alfred go from this:


to this:


Is it ever explained?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Batman TV show. Same reason Mr. Zero went from this:



To this:

jaydee74 wrote:the first picture doesn't show up. Um, and how does that answer the Alfred question?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:On Batman, Alfred was a skinny old guy. So, he became a skinny old guy in the comics. IIRC, the Batman show made Mr. Zero into Mr. Freeze who needed cold to live and he became such in the comics.

Another pic of Mr. Zero:

Jherek Carnelian wrote:Actually Alfred became skinny way before the TV show. In 1944 in fact. When Alfred first appeared, he was overweight and clean-shaven. However, when the 1943 Batman serial was released, William Austin, the actor who played Alfred, was trim and sported a thin moustache. DC editors wanted the comic Alfred to resemble his cinematic counterpart, so in Detective Comics #83 (January 1944), Alfred vacationed at a health resort, where he slimmed down and grew a moustache. This look has remained with the character ever since. He was also killed off in the comics but then revived when the TV show became a hit. I guess the answer to his changing visual appearance is really down to interpretation by different artists and writers.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Ah, I recalled it was due to something on screen, I just picked the wrong screen.

jaydee74 wrote:I see. So because of the 60's tv show, they changed Alfred. Is that right? I guess it was earlier than that, but still. Thanks Jerry and Jhereck. Wasn't Aunt Harriet in the comic for a brief time as well? Also, I know Chief O'Hara was in some of the Jeph Loeb Batman stuff, but did he ever appear in Batman or Detective Comics?

Jherek Carnelian wrote:Again IIRC Aunt Harriet was introduced first into the TV show as the producers felt the Wayne household needed a female character to ofset all the male bonding (if you know what I mean ) The character then started appearing in the comics around the mid sixties, strangely enough portrayed as skinnier and much more of a busybody. I don't think she lasted much beyond the sixties. Chief O'Hara..not sure. Jerry?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:O'Hara was also in a Batman story I read yesterday in the cult classic run of Englehart and Rogers on 'Tec. Also, like with Alfred and Mr. Freeze, other mediums have influenced their comic counterparts. For example, Kryptonite came up on the radio before making it to the comics. 'Up, Up and Away', 'Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound', 'It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Superman!', and 'Truth, justice, and the American way' came from the radio and TV IIRC.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:No prob, J. IIRC, Batwoman and Bat-girl were originally introduced to offset the homosexual overtones of the Batman/Robin dynamic in the comics. I don't remember Harriet being in the comics but it really wouldn't surprise me. Also, I should add I don't think any of the TV villains made it to the comics although I do believe Falseface was a Batman comic villain first before making it to the TV show. Of the Batman cartoon series, I know Harley Quinn, Sewer King, Condiment King, and Ruby Rocket made it into the comics. Personally, I'd love Baby Doll to make the transition.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:

Jherek Carnelian wrote:Yep. There she is! And the boys don't seem too pleased to see her. She's gonna spoil their 'fun'

OMG! I've just thought. Aunt Harriet...The Black Glove?!?! Nah! Morrison wouldn't dare...would he?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:I've felt for the last few months that Jet is being set up to become a villain and for some reason the latest solicitation has me thinking she's Black Glove.

thrILL! wrote:On the island of Themiscyra , has any explanation been given about the men involved in their lives and existence? Who is Wonder Woman's father? Who fathered these women and what happened to them afterward?

Just wondering what writers have explored in this territory in Diana's past issues. Thanks.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Men have not been allowed to walk on Themyscria since the betrayal of Hercules. Wonder Woman was formed from clay by Hippolyta and granted life by the gods, given magnificient abilities as gifts from them. Rumor also has it the soul of Hippolyta's sister was reincarnated in Diana. As for the women, I believe they started as a society of women and IIRC their numbers increased by 1) women who died violent deaths would find themselves reborn on Paradise Island or 2) abandoned Patriarch's world to live on Themyscria (like former WW villain Paula Von Gunther, Harbinger, and the first Fury).

Mr_Wayne wrote:Can I get a complete list of the top 10 or 20 greatest martial artists in the DC Universe to this day? In order of greatest to least or vise versa. Martial artists w/o powerful meta-human abilities of course. (Example: Black Canary and Conner Hawke are metas but their ability isn't influential to there skills)

Jerry Whitworth wrote:It is for Connor, he's seemingly immortal. The list from greatest to least:

Richard Dragon
Cassandra Cain
Lady Shiva
Bronze Tiger
Bruce Wayne
Natas
Black Canary
Drakon
Oliver Queen
Ted Grant
Dick Grayson
Jason Todd
Catman
Bane
Catwoman
Renee Montoya
Batwoman
Red Arrow
Alpha
Mark Shaw

The 12 Brothers in Silk were excluded because of their size (which would have dominated the list) as well as the Karate Kids and 853rd century Batman because they're from the future and would've killed the rest. Jin Si has only popped up once in a mini, so I didn't include her.

Mr_Wayne wrote:Thank you for the info. I was under the impression that Bruce Wayne has surpassed Bronze Tiger and Shiva with all his other worldly experience, with other worldly beings. I know they beat him when he was training and when he was a young Batman, but in theory Bruce should be beyond them by now. I know he's gone back and defeated Shiva (unless I'm mistaken).

Wait how is Ted Grant better than Dick Grayson?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:If anything, Tiger should beat Dragon, but his loss to Cassandra was rather humiliating and I blame a writer doing poor research for that outcome. It's for that reason alone I put him so low, not to mention popular opinion tie him at around Bruce. Wayne defeated a mind-controlled Shiva once, and although Loeb says she was at full capacity for the fight, the community generally goes against this concept because he had such a rough time with her in the past and ended up beating her easy while taking down two dozen other villains at the same time. It just doesn't gel.

Experience, specializing in a single art and being the best at it, Ted's undefeated AFAIK in hand-to-hand combat, etc. In any event, Ted tends to be higher ranked.

Mr_Wayne wrote:Makes sense. I think that top could shift a bit, but for continuity's sake I'll buy that.

Idk about that one. I'm still bugged by that. He may be undefeated but with Dick's pure athleticism alone I think he'll trump Ted ten-fold. If he and Dick fought he wouldn't go in the fight just throwing punches we're talking Olympic caliber gymnastics plus various styles of martial arts. Dick owns Ted.

I'm having trouble buying that Oliver Queen is better than Dick or Jason also. What information do you have on this? For that matter, isn't Tim Drake better than Red Arrow by now? I can't picture Red beating Tim one on with no weapons.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:For Ted/Dick, Ted is also an olympic level gymnist and the two are roughly the same age due to the magic hoodoo cast on Ted years ago where everytime he dies, he's the age he was when the spell was cast. I'll put it this way: most circles would have Ted giving Bruce a tough time. Ted also stood his own ground in multiple encounters with the 12 Brothers in Silk, each brother a Shiva-level fighter. Time and again, you throw experts in Eastern arts at Ted and if he doesn't take them down, he at least is able to walk away from the fight. I can't recall Wildcat ever being taken out by a human level fighter while I recall a few times Dick has been dropped. Simply put, Ted is a top ten fighter, Dick is close but no cigar.

As for Ollie, he has years of experience pitting his skills against not only other fighters but also world crushers. However, he took his loss to Drakon and then Deathstroke badly and he sank his fortune into a year of training on a deserted island with the world's best fighters that didn't crack the top 20 before hunting down Deathstroke's teacher Natas. In months, Natas turned Ollie from a barely top 20 fighter to exceeding Connor's skills and cracking the top 10. Ollie now has a shot against Drakon but more interestingly is after training with Shiva, Canary actually exceeded Drakon. When fighting Jason, the youth even commented on how dangerous Ollie became over the year. Personally, I'd consider putting Jason over Ollie, but it seems Winick is the only person who writes Jason as being a Bruce-level fighter and popular opinion holds Jason's past against him being a top 10 fighter. Then again, I'd put Jason over Grayson as well, but I have a feeling I'd be dodging tomatoes for that estimate.

In the end, there's no official list anywhere and this is all estimation. I mean, a guy named Sing almost defeated Richard Dragon in the 70's, but no one has heard from him since. Vic Sage was a top 20 fighter before his death and he fought a guy called Marcos that nearly beat him but that fighter went off the map afterwards. Savant is supposedly a Bruce-level fighter but he's become such a bit player, I couldn't in good conscious include him in the list. The top 20 I offer is from several debates I've had about DC's martial artists and years of reading DC Comics.

highlordyoda wrote:Could you please explain the New Gods, i must admitt i am very lost?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Untold years ago, there was a planet called Urgrund. This planet was one of the first worlds to thrive with life and intelligence since the creation of the Universe. Inevitably, the people of this world became so advanced, they became self-styled gods: immortal and more powerful than any other living creature that they knew. However, when a world can not find any opposition in the Universe, they then turn to themselves. No one knows how long they battled, but these gods fought each other until Ragnarok. Referred to in Norse mythology as the end of days, Ragnarock tolled the end of these beings and the surrounding galaxy, leaving two planets from the ashes of Urgrund. These ancient beings would come to be known as the Old Gods.

However, life and death are a constant cycle, and so life would begin anew on these planets. Referred to as the New Gods, the two worlds became parallel worlds: New Genesis, a place of peace and beauty, and Apokolips, a world of war and fire. However, so powerful were the Old Gods, that not only did life spring on the remnants of Urgrund, but throughout the cosmos, giving birth to the gods of other worlds (Greek Panthenon, Gods of Krypton, etc).

The history of these two worlds, which spanned thousands, if not millions, or years, largely is unknown. It wasn't until the advent of Darkseid that we truly begin to cast an eye to the "Fourth World" (named such because of the common terminology of third-world, first-world countries; the world of the New Gods is a different world than any have ever seen). Apokolips was ruled by a being named Yuga Khan, one that seemed to be a step between the massive body of an Old God and the relative "normal" height of a New God, and who was extremely powerful (able to destroy entire planets with his power). He had two sons, Uxas and Drax. Although they paled in comparison to their father in power, they were still massively strong. However, Uxas was extremely devious and crafty, orchestrating a war that saw his brother near-death (and believed dead for many years), his uncle dead at the hands of the man who would become ruler of New Genesis, his father chained to the Source Wall, and kill his mother with his own hands. Calling himself Darkseid, he took control of Apokolips and started a massive war with New Genesis, which gave rise to the god known as Izaya to become Highfather and lead his people into a stalemate with the evil despot.

Darkseid saw that New Genesis was equal in power to his forces, so he had to be crafty to overtake his enemy. It was decided the two worlds would have a peace treaty, exchanging sons as a sign of solidarity. Izaya, the Highfather, gave his only son, Scott Free, to Apokolips, and took Darkseid's son Orion (who is destined to usurp Apokolips from his father) as his own. Free would go to live at one of Granny Goodness' Terror Orphanages, facilities across the planet to pervert people into becoming subservant warriors who are willing give their lives in the name of Darkseid. Orion, filled with an inner darkness that surfaced in anger and massive strength, learned to control his great power under Izaya, though he is always quick to action because of this great anger in his heart. All the while, Darkseid learned of an equation known as the Life Equation, a mathematical equation that can create life and harmony across the Universe. However, he theorized that if such an equation exists, so must an Anti-Life Equation; an equation that tolls death, destruction, servitude, and darkness. Using the treaty as a cover, he sent his agents across the cosmos to finds elements of the equation.

Scott Free, ever defiant of the programming to turn him evil, inevitably broke free of Apokolips, finding he had a certain skill at escape. He would befriend the leader of Darkseid's personal attack force known as the Female Furies, taking Big Barda with him to Earth where they inevitably wed. Prior to this, Darkseid found that elements on Earth form a significant component of the Anti-Life Equation, forcing him to turn an eye to the planet with great interest.

Earth would become an important piece of interest for the Fourth World. Scott Free would study under an escape artist named Mr. Miracle who he would take the mantle of when he passed. Darkseid tried to subvert the planet by sneaking his tech via a group he had formed by Bruno Mannheim called Intergang. Highfather would empower five Earth people into becoming the Forever People, an Earth-based group to oppose Darkseid and were given the ability to use a Mother Box (the most advanced computers in the Universe) to summon the powerful Infinity Man, the Fourth World's greatest champion and whose mantle fell upon the near-death Drax, brother of Darkseid. The conflict on Earth would come to a head after Superman repeatedly shutdown Darkseid's Earth operations in the event known as Legends.

One of Darkseid's inner most servants is Glorious Godfrey, one of the greatest manipulators in existance. He perpetutated an attack that Earth's mightiest defenders couldn't fight against: the betrayal of the people they protected. Darkseid sent his agent Macro-Man and created the creature Brimstone by detonating a nuclear power planet and giving it life. The two ravaged Earth's forces, but as always the heroes triumphed only for Godfrey to put a swing on the battles that the heroes create more mayhem than do good in their battles. An outcry came for heroes to stop being vigilantes and hang up their masks. Godfrey however pushed the plan by amassing an army of citizens and attacking Earth's capital where the heroes defeated him and rested his mind control off of the civilians.

Since then, the New Gods have sort of come and gone, appearing here and there and used in stories whenever someone needs a major threat. Perhaps the greatest New Gods story came in the Great Darkness Saga, where Darkseid resurfaces in the distant future during the time of the Legion of Super-Heroes and conquers Earth and their United Planets until the intervention of a newly born Izaya, returning from the dead to once again put a stop to the despot.

I hope this helps!

venomjr wrote:explain why Hawkman's origin is needlessly complicated. DISCUSS!!!

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Before Crisis, there were a number of characters that were almost identical on Earth-1 and Earth-2. Hawkman, although looking the same, had wildly different origins (one was a re-incarnated Egyptian royal, the other an intergalactic spaceman). After Crisis, in perhaps an unpopular move, it was decided the Hawkman that would remain is the Golden Age one. However, people wanted the Silver Age one, so Hawkworld was done. Only, Hawkworld was pretty dark for the supposedly kiddy DC and also people preferred the original space Hawkman. Now, the vast majority of confusion over the Hawkman character came when he appeared in the Justice League. You see, the original was retired, like the rest of the JSA in the wake of the HUAC hearings. The other one was embroiled on Thanagar. So, who was the guy on Earth? With the Invasion! event, it was decided the Hawkman on Earth was in fact an agent for the advancing Thanagarian forces. However, for some reason or another, he pretended to be Katar Hol, even though AFAIK Katar had never been to Earth at this point. Katar would later come to Earth and end up joining the Justice League. But, then people started writing stories about the old League where Ollie and Hawkman fought. Only, it didn't add up because Fel Andar wasn't around at that point and even if he was, that meant all those memories were now clouded by the fact he wasn't Katar. So, needless to say, it was a massive cluster ****. Writers later tried saying it was in fact the Golden Age Hawkman, but by then people were sick of the headache of Hawkman's origins. In fact, rumor has it DC unofficially put a label on Hawkman as "do not touch."

Now, another character who got royally messed with because of Crisis was Dr. Fate, whom IIRC went through five possessors in less than 20 years. But, then in walked David Goyer and James Robinson. They did something rather unique: they actually used DC continuity as a story-driven force instead of acting like it was a leash. Their initial JSA run returned Dr. Fate to prominence and explained the reasoning behind the character changes over the years. Robinson bowed out of JSA and gave his spot to Geoff Johns, whom many saw as a similar writer who liked continuity and put a new spin on things. It was under Johns and Goyer on JSA that the problem of Hawkman was tackled, and after cleaning up Fate, people were really behind the idea. So, he went about tackling the problems and almost making a guide cleaning up Hawkman.

One of fans major Hawkman complaints is the randomness of having a Egyptian Hawkman and a space Hawkman. JSA explained this is because a Thanagarian craft crash landed on Earth in ancient Egypt and not only inspired Khufu (Hawkman's initial incarnation) but also provided his Nth metal.

The next major complaint came from something Zero Hour did. You see, Hawkman and his love and bitter enemy all died in a magic ritual that forces the three to keep re-incarnating and repeating history. But, Zero Hour said that Hawkman was actually a hawk avatar and Vandal Savage's nemesis across time. Johns initially started to clean this up by saying Nth metal actually manipulates the four Fundamental Forces (gravity, strong force, weak force, and electromagnetism). By this, he explained it is the magic ritual and the Nth metal that was used to slay the three that binds them across time due to the effect of the weak force (which is kind of described as decay or breaking down of energy; the Nth metal re-inforces the trio's spirits, which is essentially energy, thus, with the help of the ritual, is what keeps looping them back to life). Johns also did away with the complicated hawk avatar idea in his Hawkman solo series, putting it all on the Egyptian ritual. This explains why so many incarnations of Hawkmen gravitated to Nth metal on Earth, because they were in fact drawn to it.

As for years later, he said it was in fact the Golden Age Hawkman who joined the League and it was partially due to the Nth metal that he was so young in body while there because of the Nth metal lessening the effects of age. Fel Andar was only in the League for a brief time before being outed, this time immitating Carter.

His final step was by combining the two separate Hawkmen. Simply put, we learn that both Hawkmen were destined to be the saviours of Thanagar. Through a ritual on the planet, the then dead Hawkmen were forged together to form one soul, thus giving birth to the new and current Hawkmen who remembers all their past lives. Because of this, we have one Hawkman that essentially fits the bill for all the Hawkmen. This is one of the reasons Johns is so well-received, he takes a problem and fixes it. He's the carpenter of the DCU. Hope this helps!

Jherek Carnelian wrote:On an unrelated note Jerry, here's something that's always puzzled me. What Mars does J'onn J'onnz come from? Obviously not the present day Mars of our universe. Was it that the New Earth Universe Mars was inhabited or is it a Mars from a parrallel universe or the past or future or what? I know there have been numerous conflicting retcons for the MM but what, in your opinion, is the current explanation for his origin?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Untold millenia ago when the Universe was still young, the newly self-appointed Guardians of the Universe turned an eye to the planet of Mars. What they saw disturbed; a representation of everything they stood against, chief amongst these ideas was utter chaos. The people of Mars were evil beings, embodiments of sin and want, using their abilites to meld mind and body in perverse and dark ways, bathing in fire and worshipping it as their god. However, most disturbing was their level of advancement. They were mere years from being capable of exploring the stars and spreading their repulsive darkness across the Universe. The Guardians were creatures of logic, beings of science, and they examined these martians. They discovered their madness derived from their infatuation with fire, so much so their perversion took a physical form known as Fernus, a god given form by the powerful minds of the Martian people. To "cure" the Martians, all that needed to be done was to quell their lust for the flame. And so these self-styled judges of the Universe did as such, placing in the minds of these people who created a sentient god from their thoughts, that the flame was deadly. And so it was, the beings were born anew, free of the chaos in their hearts. But, the procedure was not a complete success. Some of the creatures still held a piece, ever so small compared to what was before, that made them different. These creatures would form their own sect, altering their color and becoming the White Martian faction. However, the being known as Fernus was more than a mere figment of the Martian mind. He was a being given life from their worship, and thus he remained, buried deep in the DNA of every Martian, waiting for the day one of their kind would again embrace the flame.

Untold years passed. The supposed White and Green Martians warred against each other until one side won. The green, the ones who forsook evil, banished the White Martians to the stars. However, Mars would change with two major events. One was the birth of twin brothers, J'onn and Ma'ale. It was foretold J'onn would be the Martian's greatest light, and his brother their greatest darkness. They were both named in their ancient tongue as such, but their mother refused to treat them any different. The other major event was the day Apokolips brokered an alliance with Mars. J'onn would grow up to follow in his mother's footsteps, becoming a Manhunter, the Martian peacekeepers, and became the finest of them. His brother Ma'ale become a brilliant scientist, a leader himself in his field. Across the spaceways, Darkseid held his taxing war on New Genesis. Desperately seeking components necessary for the Anti-Life Equation, he discovered a key component was to be found on Mars (some contend this element may in fact be what is in Martians that gave birth to a being like Fernus). However, his forces already spread thin, he attempted a different tactic. Ambassadors including Kanto (Darkseid's personal assassin) were sent to Mars, attempting to peacefully align with their people. The Martians, beings of science, saw the alliance as a great opportunity. J'onn was selected as Mars' ambassador and would travel to Apokolips on diplomatic visits with Kanto where the two seemingly became good friends. However, Darkseid is not one known for his patience, and so measures were taken to take what he wanted from the Martians covertly. It fell to Desaad to take a Martian, J'onn's brother Ma'ale, and re-engineer his mind to become a acolyte to Darkseid. Returned to his people, a rash of crimes began to rock Mars. The premier taboo on the planet is entering one's mind without permission. An assailant did it on a nightly basis, the issue coming to a head when J'onn's mate was "raped." The culprit was found to be Ma'ale, seeking the component Darkseid desired. For the ultimate crime, the Martians decreed the ultimate punishment. Ma'ale's telepathy was removed, unable to connect to the life-sustaining group think of the Martians. His memory of the event was erased and he was returned to his previous life under the idea he wasn't born with telepathy. Only, Ma'ale had a brilliant mind and over time he realized he was treated differently.

At first, he believed it was because he couldn't join together with his people. But over time he realized there was something more, an almost disgust on the minds of those around him. It was all that was necessary to unlock his memories. Now, no one knows if it was because of his mind tampering by Darkseid or his own people, but Ma'ale had become immune to the fire weakness (regardless, I believe it was Desaad's tampering that protected him from Fernus taking over his body, at least completely). Ma'ale seeked to liquidate his people and egineered a virus that took advantage of the Martian's chief weakness': should a Martian try to meld (their form of affection, or life itself), they would burst into flame. Most fell shortly after the virus was administered. J'onn was one of the early ones to catch on and managed to help his family survive by keeping them from bonding. However, melding is life itself to the Martian people, and in a moment of the weakness his mate and child merged. They burst into flames and J'onn was left alone, just him and his cowardly brother. A man possessed, J'onn found his brother hiding in the planet's center. J'onn attacked him, inevitably burying him under the weight of Mars to die. J'onn was now truly alone. He roamed the barren surface of the planet, adrift in his own madness. No one knows how long (J'onn can not recall), but it was believed to be for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Earth years.

J'onn's life would change when a scientist accidentally beamed him to Earth. The scientist was startled and had a heart attack, collapsing and causing a fire (thus keeping J'onn from saving him). Stuck on this planet, J'onn roamed it, given a new purpose to live as he analyzed these peculiar people. Many things would happen in his short time of a few decades on the planet. J'onn would establish identities across the globe, in some instances becoming a hero such as the Dervish in Turkey and the Bronze Wraith of the Justice Experience in America. He would observe an alien similar to himself crashland on Earth, taking forms (such as a farm hand and school teacher) to observe and help sire this being into becoming a positive force for good. He would take a more proactive hand by becoming his ally in the group known as the Justice League as he became known as Superman. But, J'onn's past would keep returning upon him. The White Martians would come to Earth pretending to be saviours. Ma'ale would escape Mars and come to Earth to destroy his brother's life. J'onn would discover he has cousins in the form of the red Saturnians (much like the Daxams are cousin to the Kryptonians). However, perhaps chief amongst changes in his life came when he tried to overcome his weakness to fire and became the chaos god Fernus. He managed to tame the beast with the help of his friends and now locks him away inside himself, ever present the danger of his return while giving J'onn some control over his fire weakness. Well, that's about it. The only thing really retconned out was that the fire weakness was more of a psychological fear known solely to J'onn (much like claustrophobia) that he conquered in the 80's; Grant wasn't aware of this when he had his JLA run and made the weakness for all Martians fire instead of J'onn's individual psychological fear.

RODIMUS88 wrote:Sorry if this looks like a "waste of time" Qu,but I badly want to clarify sth: When the idea of the superheroes genre in comics 1st flourished(most popularly by Superman in '38),it was NOT targeted to children but adults right? Becoz if im not wrong,most comics at that time were for grown ups.The only reason why a certain % of the w.population think that it is kiddie stuff is becoz of the 60s-80s sat morning cartoons right?.. So yeah...Thx so much.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Comics found their roots in radio, comic strips, and pulp magazines. Back then, it was hard to convey action on radio so often times sound effects were employed to replicate gun battles and bodycount was left ambigious. Pulp magazines sort of brought these radio programs to life and thus replicated the type of action it had. Because of the higher paper stock and size, it was priced high enough that it was made to appeal to young adults and up. The first American comic books were actually collections of comic strip characters, something made to be drawn in such a way to attract children while written to give an adult something entertaining amdist their newspaper (IIRC, the most valuable American comic is a copy of the Little Nemo comic strip printed into book form). Over time, characters like Superman (the version of Superman to reach publication was based on the novel Gladiator's protagonist Hugo Danner and pulp magazine star Doc Savage, the Man of Bronze) and Batman (based upon many several sources including Zorro, the Shadow, and Vincent Price's the Bat) came into publication that were based upon the pulp magazines and radio programs but for a cheaper price by printing on the cheapest paper stock and with only a dozen pages. However, it was apparent children were the chief buyers and the publishing companies reflected this generally within a few issues of the book. Where Superman would let gangsters fall to their deaths and Batman carrying a gun was replaced with Superman fighting mad scientists and Batman fighting costumed criminals like the Joker (IIRC, Batman had the first costumed villains, Dr. Death and Joker IIRC being the first).

venomjr wrote:how many Wolverine clones are there in the DC universe?

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Well, I should start by saying Wolverine is loosely based on the Legion of Super-Heroes character Timber Wolf. Logan's second costume even further reflects this immitation by taking Timber Wolf's bronze and brown color scheme. As for clones at DC, that's subjective. IIRC, Sabretooth actually had a clone first in the form of Tracer of the Extremists. Also, there are many characters that started out separate from Wolverine, but were placed in his vein. Geoff Johns' interpretation of Hawkman and several incarnations of Vixen come to mind (IIRC, Grant Morrison specifically used Vixen as an allegory to Logan in his JLA Classified arc when he modelled the Ultramarines after Marvel's biggest characters). The only real copy I can think of is Wolfen of Loeb's Maximums, who appears like a darker Beast but has a Wolverine-like personality. The concept behind Wolverine isn't exactly a new one, though. You can look at pre-cursors to Wolverine in characters like Tiger-Man at DC or the original Cat-Man.

Rollo Tomassi wrote:Great thread, Jerry! Very informative! I especially liked your succinct description of Hawkman's convoluted origins. I happened on his new series ( Now Hawkgirl) in one lump and read them straight through. Geoff Johns is a continuity junkie. It's why I like his writing so much.

Anyway, I have a niggling question that's been bothering me. Besides Batman, my first DC book was the short lived Hawk & Dove series from the late 80s/early 90's. I remember the Armageddon fiasco where they switched "villains" halfway and made Hank Hall Monarch instead of Captain Atom as they had originally planned. Now with Post Infinite Crisis, they have retconned(?) Captain Atom into the Monarch armor. I'm not really sure when and where this happened, but ultimately what does it mean for Hank Hall? Did he retroactively NOT become Monarch? I would really love to see a new Hawk & Dove book that doesn't involve that wanky british chick maquerading as Hawk. And on a related note, were Hank and Don somehow related to Carter Hall and his son, Dr. Fate? Or is the last name a coincidence? All of them having bird related outfits and the same last name seems a little hinky. Geoff Johns would have a field day! Anyway, any insight you have would be appreciated.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Armageddon 2001 is a headache unto itself. Okay, everyone guessed Captain Atom was Monarch. DC wanted it to be a surprise, so it was changed at the last minute to be Hawk. So, Hank become the villain and later Extant, everything was crazy but cool. That is, until Extreme Justice hosted a convulted story where Captain Atom was revealed to always be intended to have become Monarch as the team came against the uber-baddy. Most have tried to forget this story, rightfully so. But, I guess some writers felt it should be addressed because often times fans grow up to be writers and want to amend mistakes. Though I don't know if this is such a case, Captain Atom became sort of a big deal in the last few years. He was the hero in Loeb's initial Superman/Batman arc. He bounced around in the Wildstorm universe as plans were made to Superboy Prime punch him out of existance. But, editorial got cold feet at the last minute and so was born Breach. During Infinite Crisis, we learn Breach was the Earth-8 version of Captain Atom (like Jason Rusch was Firestorm and Kyle Rayner was Green Lantern, a world where the super-hero started with what's considered our new generation). So, it's getting really complicated at this point. Then it gets worse. Loeb brings Captain Atom back in his final Superman/Batman arc and Breach gets killed and turns into Captain Atom in Infinite Crisis. So, by my count, we got two Caps. Now, one of them (take your pick) gets damaged and is experimented on in Bludhaven to make new metas for the government. The Atomic Knights come across him and make him a new exo-suit that has a strong resemblance to the Monarch armor to contain his growing power (apparently, his damaged suit had him bursting at the seams as the Nuclear Force was reaching critical mass). Having been aware of the Bleed via his adventure in Wildstorm and sensing an imbalance, he would go on to explore the Bleed, learn of the Monitors, assemble an armor, and take the name Monarch. Now, we do know that Hank Hall at least becomes Extant because it was a major plot point in JSA. He probably ended up being Monarch as well. Thus, we have two Captain Atoms and two Monarchs. Convulted, but it makes the most sense.

As for Hank, I remarked on the name in the past myself and perhaps it was a roundabout way for the writer to give Hawkman an heir (even though we already had Golden Eagle, Northwind, and Silver Scarab); I don't know and don't think it's ever been addressed. However, Geoff Johns doesn't believe in coincidence and so combined the two elements in his JSA run. In the return of Dr. Fate arc, we learn a child born of Order and Chaos was to be born and would become the new Dr. Fate, DC's master of mysticism. Mordru attempted to kidnap the child, take over it's body (he was using Arion as a vessel at the time), and then accept the mantle of Fate. Later we learn it was Mordru who drove Hank Hall mad and drove him to rape Dawn, the female Dove, to produce the child of Order and Chaos. Now, the person who ended up taking residence in the child's body was Hector Hall, Hawkman's son and formerly Silver Scarab and Sandman. So, Geoff found a way to pull it all together. Hawk and Dove are the biological parents of the last incarnation of Hector Hall, placing them in the Hawkman family.

Metal Misfit wrote:Dr. Jerry:

What the heck is up with Monarch? I didn't bother with the Wildstorm Captain Atom mini, but from what I gather, he's pretty much got more power within him than he ever had... so that turns him bad..? Has all that contained energy driven him crazy? Because otherwise, I just don't see Captain Atom being of sound mind and becoming a villain.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:Technically, he's not a villain; more of a anti-hero. You see, saving the Earth in Superman/Batman, he got dumped in the Wildstorm universe. The experience sort of expanded his horizons. Returning to Earth, he was as confused as anything because of the replacement of Breach, which sort of created some odd singularity in the fabric of time and space, almost like they occupied the same space at the same time while being only slightly different. When Breach was killed in Infinite Crisis, it would appear his matrix was fused with Captain Atom making an extraordinarily powerful being but with no bearrings to speak of. During the year, he was severely damaged and risked exploding again, this time perhaps with enough power to create a nuclear winter on Earth. Captured by the government, his excess power was used to make super-soldiers for the US government under the guise of Bludhaven's nuclear fallout in wake of Chemo. Given a radical new armor by the Atomic Knights, keepers of perhaps the very technology of tomorrow, he found himself able to wield his massive energies in entirely new ways. Consuming Major Force (which itself could account for some of his extreme behavior) and obliterating the ruins of Bludhaven, Captain Atom seemed to become much more than what he was; where he was one of the most powerful beings on Earth, with the addition of Breach and Major Force, the Monarch armor, and a seemingly expanded consciousness perhaps due to his multiverse traversial, he became downright godlike. At some point, he also became aware of the Monitors and their harsh rule of the Multiverse. Although I don't think we exactly know why he hates them so much (I would imagine it would do with how he ended up as a slave in Bludhaven), he's assembling a force to battle the godlike race of the Monitors. In his mind, he's justified as that he maybe granting freedom for the Multiverse where the Monitors could execute someone just for accidentally sliding to another Earth. In addition, he feels the ends justify the means. By putting together the most devastating strike force across the 52 via his Arena and obtaining extraordinarily deadly foot soldiers like the Forerunner, JLAxis, Crime Society of America, and the Extremists, he hopes to wipe out the Monitors for everyone's sake.

Danimal wrote:Not sure if anyone's asked you this before, but what's your opinion on the DC/Shuster and Siegel case? Me personally, DC should settle with them for a generous sum due to their historical screwing over of Superman's creators, but that's just one man's opinion. I'm not sure of the actual merits of this case, but it seems it wouldn't hurt DC to make one last gesture.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:It's a bit of a slippery slope for me. I think the history of the situation has to be understodd first. Siegel and Shuster created Superman for DC and inevitably sold the rights to the character for a rather minute sum (rumor has it $100). After seeing the sales DC was pulling in with their creation, they sued for rights. I think they had a legitimate right to do so because they probably sold the rights in a backroom deal. In the end, the court judge did his best Solomon impression and gave DC Superman and Siegel and Shuster Superboy, of which they sold the rights to DC soon afterwards for a minute, but larger, sum. Now, it was in this instance they did so under the eyes of legal counsel that they hired and in the public spotlight, so I think it should have ended there. After this event, both families were in deep financial trouble and during the time of the first Superman film, Neal Adams championed for royalties to be payed to the creators. So, probably to make themselves look like good guys, they awarded a yearly stipend to the two families that at the time was rather generous. However, over the last thirty years, the stipend would be chicken feed compared to the growth of the Superman franchise. So, the families went to court over Superboy like Joe and Jerry went to court for Superman way back when. Personally, I'm not sure if I agree with this. They sold the rights, sure for a tiny sum compared to today's standards, but that was the contract they signed. Because they didn't think ahead and use the stroke they had back then to get a better deal, they're trying to go back on their agreement because hindsight's 20/20. Do I think the Siegels and Shusters should be awarded more money, perhaps even a slice of the Superman cake? Yes. Do I think they should nip for scraps to try and get a morsole of Superboy, thus putting the franchise in limbo? Not really. I would rather they implored the public and industry professionals to make a public stand to get a stake in Superman than sort of belittle themselves to get a minor piece of Superboy. It comes off as petty to me, and I know I'm in the minority on this and I'm ready to get burned at the stake over it. But, I think this court case is ridiculous. In the end, either they'll get a paltry sum for Superboy's rights again and come back again in another thirty years for more money or the judge will award Superboy to DC and the Siegels/Shusters get the rights to Superbaby and sell the character to DC for an even smaller sum only to renegotiate his rights in thirty years.

Jerry Whitworth wrote:New Earth (Earth-52): Main Earth.
Earth-1: Mentioned by Rip, not seen yet (possibly Alex Ross' Justice).
Earth-2: New Justice Society of America (based on Pre-Crisis Earth-2).
Earth-3: Crime Society of America, a parallel world to New Earth where the heroes are villains based on the Crime Syndicate model.
Earth-4: Charlton heroes with a Watchmen flavor.
Earth-5: Marvel Family (world where time skipped from WWII to modern day).
Earth-8: Lord Havok and the Extremists.
Earth-9: Tangent Earth.
Earth-10: Freedom Fighters Earth with a Nazi Justice League.
Earth-11: Reverse Gender Earth (from Superman/Batman: Vengeance).
Earth-12: Batman Beyond.
Earth-13: Vertigo (sort of).
Earth-15: World where different characters wear familiar masks (Jason Todd as Batman, Donna Troy as Wonder Woman, etc).
Earth-16: Super-Sons.
Earth-17: Post-Apocalyptic world with the Atomic Knights as humanity's last hope.
Earth-18: JLA: Justice Riders.
Earth-19: Batman: Gotham by Gaslight.
Earth-21: New Frontier.
Earth-22: Kingdom Come.
Earth-26: Captain Carrot.
Earth-30: Superman: Red Son.
Earth-31: Superman/Batman: Absolute Power.
Earth-32: Batman: In Darkest Night.
Earth-33: Conjurors.
Earth-34: Wonder Woman: Amazonia.
Earth-37: Thrillkiller: Batgirl and Robin Earth.
Earth-40: JSA: Liberty Files.
Earth-43: Batman: Blood Rain.
Earth-48: Home to the Forerunner race, slaves of the Monitors.
Earth-50: Wildstorm.

Unnumbered Earths:
Batman: Dark Knight Returns Earth.
Justice League of America: the Nail Earth.

superdoug wrote:Also unnumbered: The Earth seen in Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl/Batgirl, where Superman died as a fetus en route to Earth, making Kara Zor-El the only Kryptonian in that universe.

superdoug wrote:I'd have to go and find the issue, but in Infinite Crisis, Kara and Barbara are clearly visible in one panel. Their world might have been one of the ones that went kablooey, though.

Metal Misfit wrote:I guess people think they have all the answers these days.