Fantasy Books and Discussion

Fantasy gets allot of hate from the average reader, I've found myself hating on several books that I've read, Fantasy does offer writers allot of freebies with various magic systems, mystical creatures, gods walking their worlds, etc... It can be pretty easy for authors to just pull the ol' deus ex machina card and create an ending or circumstance that makes everything all better when the world was in peril just a few pages before.

On the other hand occasionally you run across a well written series that despite containing magic systems or gods, is insightful, creative, and does't rely as heavily on those elements that run rampant in so many novels these days.

Instead they foucs on the characters and their growth and evolution or a just plain fun story that drags you into the books.

A prime example is Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, there are gods, magic, and magicall creatures running around in his created world, but for the most part Jordan scripts together intriguing characters and storylines that keep you hooked through the entire series up until book 11, where unforutunately Jordan passed away, the series is being finished by another author and Jordan's family, so there will be a conclusion and I'll get to the author finishing the series momentarily.

Jordan crafted an incredibly detailed world where characters grow and evolve due to the circumstances they find themselves in, you come to care and wonder what will happen to them as the series progresses.

The author finishing the Wheel of Time is Brandon Sanderson, for those unaware of his identity. He is relatively new to writing, although he is probably one of the most prolific writers going today fanatsy wise, I'm looking at you George RR Martin... I'll get to George in a bit as well.

Brandon has a wonderful mind for fantasy, instead of going with what's already been established he takes the concepts of magic and gods and turns them on their heads. In his Mistborn series you don't wonder if the bad guy will win, he already won, 1,000 years before the books even take place. Although towards the end of the series you see some of the "Gods" elements come into play, for the most part you are left wondering is there anything that the heroes can do? Did they do the right thing in the first place?

The characters are very well written, you see them slowly changing through the series, only one man starts out a full blown hero and he doesn't last long, the rest of the characters stumble their way through life, bungling onto and into the right situations. All of them make mistakes, and costly ones at that.

I really enjoy Brandon's work, it's not as heavy as Jordan's, although with him finishing out the Wheel of Time he may very well change his style quite a bit. For the time being though, Brandon writes stories that are easy to get into, challenges allot of the stale ideas that have infested much of the genere. His magic systems in all of his novels are creative and refreshing, and while they are central to his books, they don't intrude on the characters as they develop.

I think they made the right choice in Brandon Sanderson to wrap up Jordan's epic, he's motivated enough as a writer to put out the 3,000+ pages it's going to take to finish up the Wheel of Time and do so in a timely manner so that the fans of the series won't have any of the huge delays that plague allot of writers. He's also talented enough to adapt his style to Jordan's detail heavy, character driven style. Obviously until we get a taste of what he's accomplished with the Wheel of time, November of this year, in the first of the last three books of the series before he can be signed off on as truly the right choice, but from what I've read of his own original work there isn't much to worry about.

George R.R. Martin, where do you start with this guy? His stories are completely different than most of what you find in the fantasy genere. Magic is around, but it plays a very, very, very minor role in the Song of Ice and Fire. Martin crafts his characters incredibly well, you find yourself caring for them only a few pages after he's introduced them, of course Martin then kills that character off later in the book. I find myself loving his style. In his stories, no one is safe, the heroes are as likely to get offed as the villians. In the first book of the series, A Game of Thrones, you find yourself following one of the main characters of the story through his journey, seeing him try his best to make a difference and make the world a better place and do the right thing, and then see him get killed off for his trouble, to say that it was startling was an understatement.

Martin's stories are rife with intrigue, suspense, and mystery, and the fact that he has no qualms about killing characters off only adds to the atmosphere he creates so well.

As with most fans of his work, the one draw back in getting into his series is that he takes his sweet ass time in putting new books out. He's been "Finishing" the most recent book in the Song of Ice and Fire for well over a year now. His updates to his fans are few and far between, and at times he seems sdisinterested in Ice and Fire and move onto side projects. Of course that has to be a drawback of working on such and epic scope, you have to get burned out once in a while, but Martin takes it to an extreme.

He will eventually get around to finishing the books, but in the mean time his fans suffer at his whims. At least there's a show time series based on the novels coming out in 2010, that should light a fire under his ass to get the work done so he can cash in.

Another writer who suffers from long waits between books is a relative newcomer, Patrick Rothfuss. His first and only book, The Name of the Wind, is one of the more popular books in the fantasy genere right now. I don't like spoilers, so I won't get in on too much of the storyline, but Rothfuss created an incredibly likeable main character and tells the story from his view point as he relates his story to a scribe who is taking down his history. Rothfuss has a way with words that is quite remarkable. You find yourself pulled further and further into Kvothe's, the main character, story. The flow of the books i just a treat as you'll find yourself sitting up at 3 am wondering where the time went after sitting down with the book at 5 pm, and you still consider reading one more chapter.

Again, there is magic in the books, but it really takes a back seat to the flow of the story and the thoroughly enjoyable characters Rothfuss creates.

My only problem with Rothfuss is that it's going on two years since he first published The nName of the Wind. He is very good about updating his fans on his progress though, and something is expected late this year, although that was a wary statement by Patrick, he does feel that he will have the second book in the series out soon.

The last guy I'll mention is R Scott Bakker. I recently got into his books, I had heard of them before, but I was so engrossed with other books and things in my life that I didn't pick anything up of his until a couple of months ago.

I'm glad now that I didn't pick them up until I had time to devote my full attention to them. His books have one of the steepest learning curves I've seen in fantasy. Don't let it scare you away from his work, the man is a genius. You will have to work at the first of his books, The Darkness that comes Before, but once you get into what he's writing you'll find yourself engrossed in one of the most intelligently written series out on the market today, period.

I guess I should explain the "steep learning curve" here before I wrap up this post. Bakker throws you head first into his world, which would constitute a very deep end, he throws names and countries and events at you in fairly rapid succession and expects you to keep reading with the promise that things will eventually make a bit more sense to you as you go on. They do indeed begin to clear up as you begin to fill in the voids left the the first part of the book and you begin to get familiar with the world he's created. Bakker makes you work at his books, but he rewards you with a story that draws you in as you want to know more and more about the characters, why they act how they do, where are they going, what is the meaning of several of the things you still don't have answers to?

If you're a bit of a lazy reader who doesn't like to devote a whole lot of thought or concentration on your books, Bakker's work probably isn't for you, you'll likely get 1 or 2 chapters in and then walk away from it and wonder why you bothered to start the book in the first place, and if you missed something along the way.

Anyhow, I figured I'd start something up about Fantasy since I didn't see a topic devoted to discussing books in this genere and their merits and short comings, and what is out there that is worth your time and what isn't.

I don't read much fantasy because, well, a lot of it is crap. However, the fantasy that I have read and enjoyed is not only great in the realm of fantasy fiction, but among all fiction that I have read. The Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, and A Wheel of Time are all fantastic reads. I recently purchased Steven Erikson's Gardens of the Moon, so we'll see how that goes. I am also interested in reading some of Stephen R. Donaldson's work, particularly The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever.

I'm a big fan of Donaldson's books on Thomas Covenant.

The first and second series are completely different, The first series is really a story about a man who due to his lot in life is pretty bound and determined to self destruct and he enters another world and brings that attitude with him. His growth through all three of the first books is actually one of the better character transformations I've ever read as you see Thomas' reactions to what occurs because of his actions.

The second set is a completely separate beast, enjoyable, and it has allot of depth, but I enjoyed the first three books allot more than I did the second batch. That's not to say don't bother with them, they're quite good, but they're very different from the inital trilogy.

I haven't read any of the new set at all as of yet, I'll get around to it at some point though, but the finale is 4 years off at the earliest, so I'm wary to get involved in another set of books I have to wait years and years for.

I read the entire Thomas Covenant series, and hated every minute of it. I find Donaldson's wordiness to be off-putting at times to the point where I was screaming 'enough with the hair! Get on with the story!' and other choice phrases. I enjoyed the concept of The Land, and the mythology behind it, but Covenant himself was such an unlikeable, self-pitying character that I could not wish good things for him.

I will qualify my loathing of the Unbeliever series by stating that I loved the hell out of his two-book series that consisted of Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through. Where the Covenant books were stale and hard to follow, these two (while loquacious) were incredibly good reads.

I'm a huge fan of the Song of Ice and Fire series. It's the only 'political intrigue' series that I've read and loved. However, it did take me two runs at A Game of Thrones to really appreciate the way the point of view changes from chapter to chapter.

superdoug wrote:However, it did take me two runs at A Game of Thrones to really appreciate the way the point of view changes from chapter to chapter.

That's one of my favorite things about the books. There have been some characters that I didn't really care for, but the more I saw things from their perspective the more empathy I had for them, or vice versa.

Yeah, it's amusing how Martin was able to take one of the most hated characters in his books, Jamie Lannister, and transform him into someone you look forward to reading and actually show him as a likeable guy by showing things from his point of view.

Martin would probably be the top guy in Fantasy right now if he could put a book out every two years, as it stands it's been four years since a Feast of Crows was released.

Fresh03 wrote:Yeah, it's amusing how Martin was able to take one of the most hated characters in his books, Jamie Lannister, and transform him into someone you look forward to reading and actually show him as a likeable guy by showing things from his point of view.

That's probably the best example because I really despised Jaime up until I started reading Jaime/Brienne chapters, now he's one of my favorite three characters.

I've always found what he's doing with Arya pretty interesting, turning a 12 year old girl into a ruthless assasin, I'm a little disappointed she won't be in this next book, but we'll get to see what happens with Tyrion and Danerys when they inevitably meet up.

Currently, for fantasy books, the Hellboy novels and Nightside series are the only thing I'm reading. 'Course it seems no one here is reading Simon R. Green's Nightside series. Heh. Missin' out. If you're a Dresden Files fan, then this'll knock your socks off.

I think the only one of Green's books I recall reading was Shadows Fall and I thought it was good, but the concept was really bizaar, I remember laughing allot through the whole thing, but it's been several years since I picked it up to read, maybe I'll have to go give it another whirl.

Back in the 6th grade I had this cute reading teacher (she had that hot librarian look to her) who'd give me these brand new copies of fantasy books to read, stuff waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside a 6th grade reading level, and I'd eat it up. It'd always be like "Book 5 or 6 of some series, and she'd always give me this excuse that she'd be using them next year for her reading classes to read throughout the school year.

It was total bullshit, turns out she just wanted someone to talk about these with as every other teacher at my school was either too old to care, thought fantasy books were nerd drudgery, or were too interested in her physical assets to take her seriously.

6th grade was awesome and got me into hot nerd chicks and the fantasy genre. I miss you Ms. Galkewicz and our lunch time conversations. *whimsy*

*ahem*

I really enjoyed the Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman. I think its because it wasn't quite fantasy, it was just this alternate tech-taboo future with all kinds of badassery. Tarrant is forever my favorite fictional villain-turned-anti-hero.

Man, I really want to bang a hot librarian now.

*whistles nonchalently*

It can be pretty easy for authors to just pull the ol' deus ex machina card and create an ending or circumstance that makes everything all better when the world was in peril just a few pages before.

also known as the narnia gambit

Joshua wrote:Man, I really want to bang a hot librarian now.

*single tear*

shining knight wrote:*whistles nonchalently*

It can be pretty easy for authors to just pull the ol' deus ex machina card and create an ending or circumstance that makes everything all better when the world was in peril just a few pages before.

also known as the narnia gambit

...which book did that happen in, again? I don't recall any of the books having a sudden ending like that.

superdoug wrote:

shining knight wrote:*whistles nonchalently*

It can be pretty easy for authors to just pull the ol' deus ex machina card and create an ending or circumstance that makes everything all better when the world was in peril just a few pages before.

also known as the narnia gambit

...which book did that happen in, again? I don't recall any of the books having a sudden ending like that.

It's the one that has Aslan showing up just at the right...oh, I gotcha. You! *Shakes finger at screen*

I read a lot of fantasy, but I find myself taking long breaks from the epic side of the genre.

Joshua wrote:I don't read much fantasy because, well, a lot of it is crap. However, the fantasy that I have read and enjoyed is not only great in the realm of fantasy fiction, but among all fiction that I have read. The Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, and A Wheel of Time are all fantastic reads. I recently purchased Steven Erikson's Gardens of the Moon, so we'll see how that goes. I am also interested in reading some of Stephen R. Donaldson's work, particularly The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever.

Fresh03 wrote:I'm a big fan of Donaldson's books on Thomas Covenant.

The first and second series are completely different, The first series is really a story about a man who due to his lot in life is pretty bound and determined to self destruct and he enters another world and brings that attitude with him. His growth through all three of the first books is actually one of the better character transformations I've ever read as you see Thomas' reactions to what occurs because of his actions.

The second set is a completely separate beast, enjoyable, and it has allot of depth, but I enjoyed the first three books allot more than I did the second batch. That's not to say don't bother with them, they're quite good, but they're very different from the inital trilogy.

I haven't read any of the new set at all as of yet, I'll get around to it at some point though, but the finale is 4 years off at the earliest, so I'm wary to get involved in another set of books I have to wait years and years for.

superdoug wrote:I read the entire Thomas Covenant series, and hated every minute of it. I find Donaldson's wordiness to be off-putting at times to the point where I was screaming 'enough with the hair! Get on with the story!' and other choice phrases. I enjoyed the concept of The Land, and the mythology behind it, but Covenant himself was such an unlikeable, self-pitying character that I could not wish good things for him.

I will qualify my loathing of the Unbeliever series by stating that I loved the hell out of his two-book series that consisted of Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through. Where the Covenant books were stale and hard to follow, these two (while loquacious) were incredibly good reads.

I'm a huge fan of the Song of Ice and Fire series. It's the only 'political intrigue' series that I've read and loved. However, it did take me two runs at A Game of Thrones to really appreciate the way the point of view changes from chapter to chapter.

I have read anything and everything I could find written by SRD. The man has excellent command of the English language, and much of what he has written has stayed with me since I first read it as a child.

In the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, he once says, “Knowledge is chimera, for beyond it ever lies other knowledge, and the incompleteness of what is known renders the knowing false.” I have remembered this particular phrase for years, but since I’m not at home and my library is not accessible to me at the moment, I tried to find it online to double-check my accuracy – and was horrified by the number of people who have claimed this bit of prose as their own on their websites.
<derisive snort>
Fuckin’ posers.

I do agree with Fresh3: I enjoyed the first set of books far more than the second. The Sun Bane thing got old to me very quickly, and altho’ I was really diggin’ the character of Vain, it wasn’t enuf’ to overcome the sense of growing dislike Donaldson himself seemed to have had for his female lead. I have always suspected he put her in the story in an attempt to make amends for his first time around, but since it was not brought about by a genuine change of heart in the author, it very quickly began to feel insincere. And I wholeheartedly agree with Doug about Covenant’s non-stop whining. Still, I enjoyed the writing.

My personal favorite is the “Gap” series. I consider this five book collection to be his finest work. By his own admission, the first book (The Real Story) is an over-edited piece of bare-bones crap – but it serves its purpose in introducing us to the thoroughly unlikable character of Angus Thermopyle and his hostage, Morn Hyland. And while SRD obviously *still* has many issues with women (you will remember how I joked in my LotR thread about not knowing who Frodo should rape), in this sci-fi environment the storyline is exceptionally well thought-out and believable.

The third book, “A Dark and Hungry God Arises,” is especially gritty, and while I won’t write any spoilers here, I will say that I have re-read books three, four and five at least ten times over the last decade. They are (to me) that good.

“The Bill smiled, like a corpse having an orgasm.” <-- That shit right there keeps me coming back for more.

It’s not Jane Austen or Shakespeare, but it certainly grabs the reader by the throat and makes him pay attention.

the Shannara series and the Discworld novels are my favorites

The Animorphs were my favorites.

Well, I'm currently wading through Book 12 of the Wheel of Time series, The Gathering Storm.

Thus far it's been pretty impossible to tell where Jordan's work is and where Sanderson's is.

The first couple of chapters are pretty much knowledge dumps so if you haven't read the series in a while it'll catch you up, it's a tad tedious but effective.

Rand's getting crazier with Lews Therin babbling in his head more and more and Rand starting to actually listen and try and interact with him.

Egwene's still a prisoner but seems to be gaining a following in the White Tower.

The Forsaken continue to plot away.

The Dark One's touch is effecting the world allot more than it has in any other book.

Once I'm done with it, probably in the next couple of days I'll do a full review.

The only fantasy books I've read are the Drizzit Do' Urden books from R.A. Salvatore. Those are amazing. The action scenes are so descriptive and interesting. The narrative is also very cool. I also like the Ranger's Apprentice series. It's for a younger audience but the stories are a lot of fun.

superdoug wrote:I read the entire Thomas Covenant series, and hated every minute of it. I find Donaldson's wordiness to be off-putting at times to the point where I was screaming 'enough with the hair! Get on with the story!' and other choice phrases. I enjoyed the concept of The Land, and the mythology behind it, but Covenant himself was such an unlikeable, self-pitying character that I could not wish good things for him.

Hey haven't we discussed this somewhere before?

Have any of you read Julian May's Saga of the Exiles series? They probably fit in the category of sci fi and fantasy as they feature a mix of both genres. If you haven't read them I seriously can't recommend them enough.

Fresh03 wrote:Well, I'm currently wading through Book 12 of the Wheel of Time series, The Gathering Storm.

I just finished it over the weekend and liked it a lot. The series really got back on track with Knife of Dreams, and I'm glad they found someone who could do justice to the conclusion. I have to agree, it's hard to tell the Sanderson bits from the Jordan bits. Spoiler-free review on my blog, for those who might be interested.

really digging the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series. got to get the last two books and read them. just love the way Rick Riodan modernizes Greek myths.