The Dark Knight Rises

Riddler and Penguin are really the only things I would wish out of the third film.

Glover? I barely knew her.

The Dark Knight was a really great film, but after just watching Sherlock Holmes I'm reminded of the slight problem I always had with it and Nolan's Batman in general. His portrayal of Batman is very much the "badass tough guy" rather than the "cerebral detective genius". Part of the appeal of Batman for me has always been his ability to out think basically anyone as the world's greatest detective. But Nolan's Batman often comes off as just a hardass without the intellectual heft Bruce Wayne should have IMO. Anyone else get this feeling too?

^ You're not alone. Doesn't seem like he has that prodigy mind that he does in the books. He seems intelligent, but not to the level people'd expect. Course, these are his early years. Which the third should show how he's learned from Lucius, Gordon and the GCPD, and even Alfred. He hasn't shown wisdom yet.

Nope, I think those last two posts are absurd. This is literally the only on screen batman I've ever seen that has used mad detective and reasoning skills. I don't know how anyone could complain about the lack of a cerebral Batman in Nolan's universe.

^ We just think he can be more and show more, specifically in the next film. I'm not arguing against the plausible tech compared to here's-the-Bat-Jet like the earlier movies. All he's done in the latest films is use Lucius's toys and recieved Gordon's leeway and cooperation. Where's the detective?

um, solving the crimes. Using those gadgets and stuff is the detective work. You want him to have a magnifying glass and pipe? He's solved things that the police could or did not.

alucardbarnivous wrote:Riddler and Penguin are really the only things I would wish out of the third film.

Same here

Bigtymin504 wrote:The Dark Knight was a really great film, but after just watching Sherlock Holmes I'm reminded of the slight problem I always had with it and Nolan's Batman in general. His portrayal of Batman is very much the "badass tough guy" rather than the "cerebral detective genius". Part of the appeal of Batman for me has always been his ability to out think basically anyone as the world's greatest detective. But Nolan's Batman often comes off as just a hardass without the intellectual heft Bruce Wayne should have IMO. Anyone else get this feeling too?

I have the same feeling. I don't mind it so much since you are basically getting Batman as the beginning of his career and maybe in Nolan's version, he's not the great detective just now. However, I still think that the themes in Nolan's movies were amazing and about the only thing I was never a big fan of about these movies was Bale's Batman voice. It was just funny. It sounded like he needed a throat Losenger. However, seeing Sherlock Holmes, I do wished they had a bit more of the Detective aspect to Nolan's Batman. It was a bit lacking.

Thundermatts wrote:Nope, I think those last two posts are absurd. This is literally the only on screen batman I've ever seen that has used mad detective and reasoning skills. I don't know how anyone could complain about the lack of a cerebral Batman in Nolan's universe.

Really? The only Batman movie that uses mad detective and reasoning skills? I'll have to disagree. Go back to Tim Burton's first Batman movie and how Batman reasoned and deduced the proper two components that made up Joker's toxin. He also deduced that Joker and Jack Napier were one and the same. I'm not saying that Nolan's Batman wasn't solving crimes and whatnot, but he just seemed more Dark Knight and not so much Detective; but I have never really gotten past Bale's stupid Batman voice. I just found it too humorous to take seriously.

Well put jaydee74 BlueMaxx.

ok in defense of the Detective Dark knight, I have 2 instances from just the last film, 1: he marked the bills to figure out where the money was going, 2: he figured out where the "sniper" would be during the funeral for the police chief, Now if I was to re-watch the film I could find more instances where he shows more and more detective work. Now in Batman Begins I will give you he does not show the great mind just yet, but remember that movie was about Bruce going from revenge to defender. But he has shown some detective work, figuring out the toxin (before giving it to Fox to create an antidote. Remember these films are set to be realistic. So in a realistic world, one man would not have the physical strength, money to fund, detective skills, and medical/technological knowledge to be the Batman. So in this realm he relies on the people around him, Alfred for his years of information, Fox for his ability to create Bat-gadgets. I think if you look at the latest movie its less, Dark Knight force that you would think. Plus in Batman terms he has only been the batman for less than a year and a half. So the ability to have great detective skills are still being fine tuned. Again this is set to be realistic so Batman has to be somewhat human.

nicely said Shark. My supportive argument, to go along with what he just said is: Yeah, Duh you guys.

shark6495 wrote:ok in defense of the Detective Dark knight, I have 2 instances from just the last film, 1: he marked the bills to figure out where the money was going, 2: he figured out where the "sniper" would be during the funeral for the police chief, Now if I was to re-watch the film I could find more instances where he shows more and more detective work. Now in Batman Begins I will give you he does not show the great mind just yet, but remember that movie was about Bruce going from revenge to defender. But he has shown some detective work, figuring out the toxin (before giving it to Fox to create an antidote. Remember these films are set to be realistic. So in a realistic world, one man would not have the physical strength, money to fund, detective skills, and medical/technological knowledge to be the Batman. So in this realm he relies on the people around him, Alfred for his years of information, Fox for his ability to create Bat-gadgets. I think if you look at the latest movie its less, Dark Knight force that you would think. Plus in Batman terms he has only been the batman for less than a year and a half. So the ability to have great detective skills are still being fine tuned. Again this is set to be realistic so Batman has to be somewhat human.

Those examples are fairly weak IMO though and kind of illustrate my point. I don't think he's nearly the detective genius he is in the comics, not to mention overall genius. He relies a lil too heavily on Fox and others for things. But the point about this being his beginnings does make sense so its not that big a deal. The films are still amazing. I was just a tad disappointed in that aspect of Nolan's Batman. Couple that with the overdone voice and for me Batman himself was weaker than most of the other main characters like Ledger's Joker and even Bale's "playboy facade" Bruce Wayne.

Bigtymin504 wrote:

shark6495 wrote:ok in defense of the Detective Dark knight, I have 2 instances from just the last film, 1: he marked the bills to figure out where the money was going, 2: he figured out where the "sniper" would be during the funeral for the police chief, Now if I was to re-watch the film I could find more instances where he shows more and more detective work. Now in Batman Begins I will give you he does not show the great mind just yet, but remember that movie was about Bruce going from revenge to defender. But he has shown some detective work, figuring out the toxin (before giving it to Fox to create an antidote. Remember these films are set to be realistic. So in a realistic world, one man would not have the physical strength, money to fund, detective skills, and medical/technological knowledge to be the Batman. So in this realm he relies on the people around him, Alfred for his years of information, Fox for his ability to create Bat-gadgets. I think if you look at the latest movie its less, Dark Knight force that you would think. Plus in Batman terms he has only been the batman for less than a year and a half. So the ability to have great detective skills are still being fine tuned. Again this is set to be realistic so Batman has to be somewhat human.

Those examples are fairly weak IMO though and kind of illustrate my point. I don't think he's nearly the detective genius he is in the comics, not to mention overall genius. He relies a lil too heavily on Fox and others for things. But the point about this being his beginnings does make sense so its not that big a deal. The films are still amazing. I was just a tad disappointed in that aspect of Nolan's Batman. Couple that with the overdone voice and for me Batman himself was weaker than most of the other main characters like Ledger's Joker and even Bale's "playboy facade" Bruce Wayne.

My defense of the Dark Knight should not be seen as enjoying the Batman voice, that was the worst part of it. I think you can point to the level of some genius behavior in the Bruce/Batman concept. He is able to figure out and take out bad guy/mobster rings.

You say relying on Fox as a weakness I say its a strength of character, hehe....

shark6495 wrote:

Bigtymin504 wrote:

shark6495 wrote:ok in defense of the Detective Dark knight, I have 2 instances from just the last film, 1: he marked the bills to figure out where the money was going, 2: he figured out where the "sniper" would be during the funeral for the police chief, Now if I was to re-watch the film I could find more instances where he shows more and more detective work. Now in Batman Begins I will give you he does not show the great mind just yet, but remember that movie was about Bruce going from revenge to defender. But he has shown some detective work, figuring out the toxin (before giving it to Fox to create an antidote. Remember these films are set to be realistic. So in a realistic world, one man would not have the physical strength, money to fund, detective skills, and medical/technological knowledge to be the Batman. So in this realm he relies on the people around him, Alfred for his years of information, Fox for his ability to create Bat-gadgets. I think if you look at the latest movie its less, Dark Knight force that you would think. Plus in Batman terms he has only been the batman for less than a year and a half. So the ability to have great detective skills are still being fine tuned. Again this is set to be realistic so Batman has to be somewhat human.

Those examples are fairly weak IMO though and kind of illustrate my point. I don't think he's nearly the detective genius he is in the comics, not to mention overall genius. He relies a lil too heavily on Fox and others for things. But the point about this being his beginnings does make sense so its not that big a deal. The films are still amazing. I was just a tad disappointed in that aspect of Nolan's Batman. Couple that with the overdone voice and for me Batman himself was weaker than most of the other main characters like Ledger's Joker and even Bale's "playboy facade" Bruce Wayne.

My defense of the Dark Knight should not be seen as enjoying the Batman voice, that was the worst part of it. I think you can point to the level of some genius behavior in the Bruce/Batman concept. He is able to figure out and take out bad guy/mobster rings.

You say relying on Fox as a weakness I say its a strength of character, hehe....

Haha its cool we don't have to agree on that, its just how I felt about Bats in the films. It could just be Nolan's interpretation of Batman and that's fine, Joker was a pretty strong departure from the classic Joker in the comics too but it worked just fine in that case.

Anyway, I think we all agree Nolan's films were great.

^ Exactly. No one needs to get their panties in a bunch. ...T-Matts! Hah!

Me and BigTymin are saying he hasn't nearly the depth of detective work he would normally have, possibly being that it is his early career as The Batman, and all you guys do is list things we've acknowledged. We've seen the movies, we just want more from him, especially if Nolan makes a third.

hey I was just giving facts for the fire. It is not my fault that I do not have a great amount of facts to work with.

BlueMaxx and Bigtymin I agree he is not the biggest detective in the world in the Nolan world, but I say he is a good fit. So as Bigtymin says, agree to disagree?

I was thinking about what we have been talking about, and in the third Movie I would like to see Fox die. I love Morgan Freeman as an actor, but I think it would help push Batman/Bruce into working and figuring things out for himself...

^ That could be a good closing. Fox has a heartattack and the film ends on the bleak note with a hint of drive for Batman/Bruce Wayne to be even better. Something along those lines, anyway.

thats not bad, I was thinking some sort of mob group/bad guy takes over Wayne tower Fox steps up and bam. That would push Wayne over the top......

^ More of a martyrs death for the characters. I'd let it fly. Nolan's, or should I say Freeman's, Lucius seems more confident than the meek comic version. Course, we haven't seen him in anymore than a business confrontations.

I think a Mrtyr death could be good for the series. One: Morgan Freeman is getting old(sad but sure) two: Batman has to be able start working on his own, become self sufficient. three: if Fox would be killed early in the movie that would make the bad guy have instant creditability.

So maybe here is an idea (just kicking around some ideas let me know what you think)

Open up on an exterior shot of the new Wayne manner, since completed after the burning down and dark knight fiascoes. Interior shot of the new Batcave, looks more techie than the first one (it was built that way) with the new tumbler/or whatever they use on the side. On the screen in front of Bruce is a list of recent crime sprees. A tv on the side has Gotham Tonight playing an interview with Dr. Quinnzel talking about the future of Arkham. (a subtle reference lets not make her a bad guy just yet.)

Over at Wayne Tower a board meeting is taking place with Fox at the head of the table. A man breaks in a guns down Fox. The man would be Hush (Thomas Elliot). He has come back to Gotham to take out Bruce (Nolan has done well at showing flashbacks and using them well) either way Thomas Elliot would be introduced as an antagonist to Bruce.

Same Time Penguin is shown taking over the Crime Syndicates through fear. Someone can mention how with the Falcones and Maronis have been pushed aside. Penguin though would not be deformed but just a buisness man who has a thing for killing penguins....

If a third criminal is needed we still have Mr. Zsasz running around killing people.

A funeral is shown with Bruce in morning (maybe Elliot appears)... some rough words are spoken. Later at Wayne manor Alfred and Bruce are talking about how Bruce has not picked up the Mantle of the Bat in a while. He may be needed as crime is continuing to rise. People on tv talk about seeing the bat ect. Gordon, as commissioner, is having a very hard time keeping the streets clean with a serial murder on the loose and now the killings at Wayne Tower. The Fox killing will push Bats to the limit and he goes in search.

Some how Hush and Penguin(Penguin never implemented he is a mob boss) work together to try kill batsy. Plot is foiled. Zsasz is captured. Batman is elevated to a better position in public opinion.
At the end giving a nod to a future batman movie, a circus could come to town hired by the Penguin, with the head line of the Flying Graysons. These Graysons though don't wear bright red and green sorry Chris O'sucky.

That way in the future if there was a 4th movie they could use viral campaign talking about how there is a new crime fighter in the area etc....

Also speaking of Viral campaigns, if they do what they did in this movie (dark knight) they could use the campaign to explain how people came into power etc....

Let me know

Bigtymin504 wrote:The Dark Knight was a really great film, but after just watching Sherlock Holmes I'm reminded of the slight problem I always had with it and Nolan's Batman in general. His portrayal of Batman is very much the "badass tough guy" rather than the "cerebral detective genius". Part of the appeal of Batman for me has always been his ability to out think basically anyone as the world's greatest detective. But Nolan's Batman often comes off as just a hardass without the intellectual heft Bruce Wayne should have IMO. Anyone else get this feeling too?

I think it really gets summed up with the concept of esculation mentioned at the end of Begins that becomes the plot point for Knight. Gotham needed a magic bullet to keep it from utter destruction in Begins and that was what the Batman was. In Knight, Bruce demonstrated more of an awareness of detective skills and science (tracing the bullet was the big starting point; determining its presence, using his tech to trace it, and then following it albeit it leading to a misdirection by Mr. J) to keep up with the evolution of crime. That's partly why I'm in favor of a Riddler in the third film akin to Jigsaw from the Saw films. Having those deathtraps which became a staple in the 60's and taking it to a new generation and offering an opportunity to beguile Batman at a mental level while trying to save people provides action for people that are there for that element.

i don't suppose i'd mind that whole deathtrap idea, i just don't want my Batman movie to be a rip-off of a sub-par(IMO) horror movie.

azrael07 wrote:i don't suppose i'd mind that whole deathtrap idea, i just don't want my Batman movie to be a rip-off of a sub-par(IMO) horror movie.

I'd say more of a subpar franchise, the first film was quite good imho. But as I said, deathtraps are not a new thing for Batman. So, it'd be less ripping off and more paying homage to the character's past.

alucardbarnivous wrote:

Bigtymin504 wrote:The Dark Knight was a really great film, but after just watching Sherlock Holmes I'm reminded of the slight problem I always had with it and Nolan's Batman in general. His portrayal of Batman is very much the "badass tough guy" rather than the "cerebral detective genius". Part of the appeal of Batman for me has always been his ability to out think basically anyone as the world's greatest detective. But Nolan's Batman often comes off as just a hardass without the intellectual heft Bruce Wayne should have IMO. Anyone else get this feeling too?

I think it really gets summed up with the concept of esculation mentioned at the end of Begins that becomes the plot point for Knight. Gotham needed a magic bullet to keep it from utter destruction in Begins and that was what the Batman was. In Knight, Bruce demonstrated more of an awareness of detective skills and science (tracing the bullet was the big starting point; determining its presence, using his tech to trace it, and then following it albeit it leading to a misdirection by Mr. J) to keep up with the evolution of crime. That's partly why I'm in favor of a Riddler in the third film akin to Jigsaw from the Saw films. Having those deathtraps which became a staple in the 60's and taking it to a new generation and offering an opportunity to beguile Batman at a mental level while trying to save people provides action for people that are there for that element.

I really like the idea that Riddler could help Batman become more of the detective genius we're used to in the comics. I would love to see that in the next film. Perhaps even starting to showcase some of the prodigal mind of Bruce Wayne that's been basically nonexistent in Nolan's films.