Brightest Day

The thing is new characters don't work, especially characters of color. When's the last time a ne charcter of color was successful? The thing is comic readers seem to want what they've been reading about for forever. The thing is most of those characters are white because that was what was written at the time.

So if you're going to try to make characters of color work in a universe that's known for having legacy characters, why not try them with established characters? If they don't work, that's fine, bring back the originals (Ray Palmer), but there's no reason to kill the new guy off and put him in a matchbox. Put him in limbo, stick him on the JLA, find a way to make him work elsewhere.

That's my issue with it. It's not meant to racist, but they should realize that they've had that criticism leveled against them and be ready to take it. Like I said, it just comes off as a waste of a character that you could've done something with down the line.

Demonweasel wrote:The thing is new characters don't work, especially characters of color. When's the last time a ne charcter of color was successful? The thing is comic readers seem to want what they've been reading about for forever. The thing is most of those characters are white because that was what was written at the time.

I kinda agree with this. I'm not white, but nearly all of my favorite comic characters are white because they just happen to be the most long-lived and popular icons. And I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me racist.

In terms of ethnically diverse characters being successful, I think it can and has been done well, a great example of this would be Giant-Sized X-Men in the 70s.

Bigtymin504 wrote:

Demonweasel wrote:The thing is new characters don't work, especially characters of color. When's the last time a ne charcter of color was successful? The thing is comic readers seem to want what they've been reading about for forever. The thing is most of those characters are white because that was what was written at the time.

I kinda agree with this. I'm not white, but nearly all of my favorite comic characters are white because they just happen to be the most long-lived and popular icons. And I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me racist.

In terms of ethnically diverse characters being successful, I think it can and has been done well, a great example of this would be Giant-Sized X-Men in the 70s.

I agree with this. A lot of my favorite characters are white, despite me not being white.

Also, however, I feel that minority characters can be done well and can be made into major characters. I've seen many creative takes on various minority characters that would work even better if they were simply given the same amount of attention other new characters are given.

A good example is the New X-men. We see Elixir, Pixie, and so forth getting wonderful pushes without completely ruining any stories or without it being forced (well...maybe not Pixie ) but what about Prodigy? What about Surge? Armour seems confined to Astonishing X-men which is not even canon anymore.

I would think that Prodigy would be a major plot point considering how he does not have powers and is one of the few people who lost their powers to stay. Very little is done with these characters when a lot could.

Demonweasel wrote:The thing is new characters don't work, especially characters of color. When's the last time a ne charcter of color was successful? The thing is comic readers seem to want what they've been reading about for forever. The thing is most of those characters are white because that was what was written at the time.

So if you're going to try to make characters of color work in a universe that's known for having legacy characters, why not try them with established characters? If they don't work, that's fine, bring back the originals (Ray Palmer), but there's no reason to kill the new guy off and put him in a matchbox. Put him in limbo, stick him on the JLA, find a way to make him work elsewhere.

That's my issue with it. It's not meant to racist, but they should realize that they've had that criticism leveled against them and be ready to take it. Like I said, it just comes off as a waste of a character that you could've done something with down the line.

I think new characters fail because the writer doesn't develop a strong enough hook in the beginning. We live in a time of decompressed storytelling, but for a new character that could be a death sentence. If you wait too long for a reveal or attention-grabber, readership is going to die off faster than if it was drawn by Liefeld.

And personally, I thought the dead body in the matchbox was pretty cool. To me, that felt like the death of The Atom, and not Ryan Choi.

Minorities in Matchboxes. I should start a website

Dr. Wade Fucking McNasty wrote:

Bigtymin504 wrote:

Demonweasel wrote:The thing is new characters don't work, especially characters of color. When's the last time a ne charcter of color was successful? The thing is comic readers seem to want what they've been reading about for forever. The thing is most of those characters are white because that was what was written at the time.

I kinda agree with this. I'm not white, but nearly all of my favorite comic characters are white because they just happen to be the most long-lived and popular icons. And I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me racist.

In terms of ethnically diverse characters being successful, I think it can and has been done well, a great example of this would be Giant-Sized X-Men in the 70s.

I agree with this. A lot of my favorite characters are white, despite me not being white.

Also, however, I feel that minority characters can be done well and can be made into major characters. I've seen many creative takes on various minority characters that would work even better if they were simply given the same amount of attention other new characters are given.

A good example is the New X-men. We see Elixir, Pixie, and so forth getting wonderful pushes without completely ruining any stories or without it being forced (well...maybe not Pixie ) but what about Prodigy? What about Surge? Armour seems confined to Astonishing X-men which is not even canon anymore.

I would think that Prodigy would be a major plot point considering how he does not have powers and is one of the few people who lost their powers to stay. Very little is done with these characters when a lot could.

Great examples. And relating back to what I said earlier, these characters' abilities and looks and such aren't stereotypically related to their ethnicities...Dust and Indra (while both good characters) on the other hand, not so much.

Some interesting comments from the article, I've put in bold what I thought were the most poignent arguments:

The original:
Perfectly stated, and one of the reasons I am becoming increasingly disenchanted with DC. I am twenty years old, and some of the greatest stories these older characters ever starred in occurred before I was born. I'm not saying Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, and Ray Palmer should be forgotten, but returning to Silver Age characters again and again will only continue to alienate newer fans and teach us not to buy into new concepts because they won't stick around long. I bought every issue of the Jaimi Reyes Blue Beetle even though I never clicked with the Ted Kord iteration. I followed Jason Rusch even though I didn't know a thing about Ronnie Raymond. Kyle Rayner and Wally West are my definitive Green Lantern and Flash, but now I can't even purchase a comic with one of these characters on any given month.

Ultimately, though, DC will make choices based on sales. If white, Silver Age characters sell much better than non-white newer characters, DC is going to keep bringing these characters forward. I might not be sticking around much longer to see how it goes.


The reverse argument:
We're a similar age and I find the opposite to be true. I'm more attracted to DC books that feature the "main" incarnations of the characters and I'm not big on the idea of legacy heroes, which may be a factor in why I've never been the biggest fan of DC in general. I'd just rather read about Barry Allen and Hal Jordan that subsequent versions of the characters. I can't say the same for what I consider to be relatively minor characters like The Atom and Blue Beetle because I've had limited exposure to them. But I do know that I'd rather feel under-represented that have characters whose description can be Black Lantern or Blackstorm. Original, diverse characters are better than an ethnic version of a pre-existing hero IMHO.

The response:
I don't disagree about the last part, but I feel like DC is now in the process of ushering away characters that had gotten out of the shadow of being "Black-Other Character." With Ryan Choi, being Asian-American was not an issue. With John Stewart, not only was race much less of an issue than when he debuted, many non-readers knew him as THE Green Lantern thanks to the animated show. Jaime Reyes was distinctly Latino without feeling forced or like a caricature.

I really support original characters, regardless of race, if they're well-written. Over in the Marvel Universe, Greg Pak introduced Amadeus Cho and he's been an excellent addition to the world. His race hasn't affected that in the least. Original characters just aren't nearly as safe or bankable as legacy characters, so, for right now, I'd rather see improvement within the established framework of the DCU than repeated failings in new directions. That said, I really hope the new DC project (the name escapes me) that is geared toward introducing new characters works well.


First off, I think it's safe to say that no one (save for a rather vocal minority) are accusing DC writers of being INTENTIONALLY racist. I think the article is just pointing out that by insisting on returning to legacy characters, they are being unintentionally biased towards white characters. This really isn't any current creator's fault though. The characters that the past generations grew up with were created in a time where racial diversity didn't exist in the medium. While these characters are better known with audiences, they're still placing newer characters on the backburner. Or they're killing them off and shoving them in matchboxes. Ryan Choi's sudden death just threw all of this into perspective. I think people were noticing that the DCU was starting to get whiter, and I don't think anyone had a huge problem with it (they understand the original characters were white, no big deal). That is, until DCU killed off a pretty cool Chinese-American character just so Deathstroke can prove a point. I think that's what made people start considering the shape that the DCU is taking. In terms of writing, Slade doesn't really have to prove a point. We as readers know by now that you don't fuck with him. So Ryan's death, which does *kind of* make sense when the writers explain it, is still questionable. Mainly because it raises the question of how many other characters with potential are going to get blindsided in order to make room for the legacies?

And Thatcher, I would disagree with you. There *are* good minority characters, we just never have a chance to interact with them, and the big writers act as if they're afraid to tackle them. Characters like Jon Stewart, Vixen, Ryan Choi, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain etc. are good characters with the potential to be relative and compelling. In many cases, they already were, but they were dwarfed by their precursors whose only obvious advantage is that they've existed longer and therefore had the chance to develop a richer canon and a deeper backstory.

If authors, prolific or not, refuse to breathe some life into these characters and develop them (or at least keep them alive to be explored and developed), then the only characters we'll ever read will be DC's usual legacy line-up. Depending on who you are, this can be a good or a bad thing, but I think everyone can agree that all of these legacy characters have had their moments where they have just been, for lack of a better term, completely played out. DC knows that, and so all of these Silver Age characters have come and gone from prominence in the DCU lineup, and been replaced with a new character to fill the space.


I think when it comes right down to it, the DC legacy is only as strong as the characters who support it, whether they've been around for six months for sixty years.

Sorry for the wall of text, infinite props to anyone who actually reads my post. XD

I threw in a bookmark halfway through. I'll come back for the rest.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:
First off, I think it's safe to say that no one (save for a rather vocal minority) are accusing DC writers of being INTENTIONALLY racist. I think the article is just pointing out that by insisting on returning to legacy characters, they are being unintentionally biased towards white characters. This really isn't any current creator's fault though. The characters that the past generations grew up with were created in a time where racial diversity didn't exist in the medium. While these characters are better known with audiences, they're still placing newer characters on the backburner. Or they're killing them off and shoving them in matchboxes. Ryan Choi's sudden death just threw all of this into perspective. I think people were noticing that the DCU was starting to get whiter, and I don't think anyone had a huge problem with it (they understand the original characters were white, no big deal). That is, until DCU killed off a pretty cool Chinese-American character just so Deathstroke can prove a point. I think that's what made people start considering the shape that the DCU is taking. In terms of writing, Slade doesn't really have to prove a point. We as readers know by now that you don't fuck with him. So Ryan's death, which does *kind of* make sense when the writers explain it, is still questionable. Mainly because it raises the question of how many other characters with potential are going to get blindsided in order to make room for the legacies?

And Thatcher, I would disagree with you. There *are* good minority characters, we just never have a chance to interact with them, and the big writers act as if they're afraid to tackle them. Characters like Jon Stewart, Vixen, Ryan Choi, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain etc. are good characters with the potential to be relative and compelling. In many cases, they already were, but they were dwarfed by their precursors whose only obvious advantage is that they've existed longer and therefore had the chance to develop a richer canon and a deeper backstory.

If authors, prolific or not, refuse to breathe some life into these characters and develop them (or at least keep them alive to be explored and developed), then the only characters we'll ever read will be DC's usual legacy line-up. Depending on who you are, this can be a good or a bad thing, but I think everyone can agree that all of these legacy characters have had their moments where they have just been, for lack of a better term, completely played out. DC knows that, and so all of these Silver Age characters have come and gone from prominence in the DCU lineup, and been replaced with a new character to fill the space.


I think when it comes right down to it, the DC legacy is only as strong as the characters who support it, whether they've been around for six months for sixty years.

That's part of my point (emphasized in bold). You're right, it's not the writers fault, because they have to go where the fans are (or where editorial believes the fans are, based on sales numbers). Even if they wanted to do something with them, the characters you listed, all good and all viable, aren't used in some shape or form, even on team books, for a variety of nebulous reasons that just boil down to "We've tried and people don't like that guy/girl." It's already that way for almost any new character in either universe, and minority and female characters start even farther back.

It's an ouroboros of identity politics in which no one wins.

Bigtymin504 wrote:

Dr. Wade Fucking McNasty wrote:

Bigtymin504 wrote:

Demonweasel wrote:The thing is new characters don't work, especially characters of color. When's the last time a ne charcter of color was successful? The thing is comic readers seem to want what they've been reading about for forever. The thing is most of those characters are white because that was what was written at the time.

I kinda agree with this. I'm not white, but nearly all of my favorite comic characters are white because they just happen to be the most long-lived and popular icons. And I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me racist.

In terms of ethnically diverse characters being successful, I think it can and has been done well, a great example of this would be Giant-Sized X-Men in the 70s.

I agree with this. A lot of my favorite characters are white, despite me not being white.

Also, however, I feel that minority characters can be done well and can be made into major characters. I've seen many creative takes on various minority characters that would work even better if they were simply given the same amount of attention other new characters are given.

A good example is the New X-men. We see Elixir, Pixie, and so forth getting wonderful pushes without completely ruining any stories or without it being forced (well...maybe not Pixie ) but what about Prodigy? What about Surge? Armour seems confined to Astonishing X-men which is not even canon anymore.

I would think that Prodigy would be a major plot point considering how he does not have powers and is one of the few people who lost their powers to stay. Very little is done with these characters when a lot could.

Great examples. And relating back to what I said earlier, these characters' abilities and looks and such aren't stereotypically related to their ethnicities...Dust and Indra (while both good characters) on the other hand, not so much.

Too true, too true.

WonderWoman2.0 wrote:Some interesting comments from the article, I've put in bold what I thought were the most poignent arguments:

The original:
Perfectly stated, and one of the reasons I am becoming increasingly disenchanted with DC. I am twenty years old, and some of the greatest stories these older characters ever starred in occurred before I was born. I'm not saying Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, and Ray Palmer should be forgotten, but returning to Silver Age characters again and again will only continue to alienate newer fans and teach us not to buy into new concepts because they won't stick around long. I bought every issue of the Jaimi Reyes Blue Beetle even though I never clicked with the Ted Kord iteration. I followed Jason Rusch even though I didn't know a thing about Ronnie Raymond. Kyle Rayner and Wally West are my definitive Green Lantern and Flash, but now I can't even purchase a comic with one of these characters on any given month.

Ultimately, though, DC will make choices based on sales. If white, Silver Age characters sell much better than non-white newer characters, DC is going to keep bringing these characters forward. I might not be sticking around much longer to see how it goes.


The reverse argument:
We're a similar age and I find the opposite to be true. I'm more attracted to DC books that feature the "main" incarnations of the characters and I'm not big on the idea of legacy heroes, which may be a factor in why I've never been the biggest fan of DC in general. I'd just rather read about Barry Allen and Hal Jordan that subsequent versions of the characters. I can't say the same for what I consider to be relatively minor characters like The Atom and Blue Beetle because I've had limited exposure to them. But I do know that I'd rather feel under-represented that have characters whose description can be Black Lantern or Blackstorm. Original, diverse characters are better than an ethnic version of a pre-existing hero IMHO.

The response:
I don't disagree about the last part, but I feel like DC is now in the process of ushering away characters that had gotten out of the shadow of being "Black-Other Character." With Ryan Choi, being Asian-American was not an issue. With John Stewart, not only was race much less of an issue than when he debuted, many non-readers knew him as THE Green Lantern thanks to the animated show. Jaime Reyes was distinctly Latino without feeling forced or like a caricature.

I really support original characters, regardless of race, if they're well-written. Over in the Marvel Universe, Greg Pak introduced Amadeus Cho and he's been an excellent addition to the world. His race hasn't affected that in the least. Original characters just aren't nearly as safe or bankable as legacy characters, so, for right now, I'd rather see improvement within the established framework of the DCU than repeated failings in new directions. That said, I really hope the new DC project (the name escapes me) that is geared toward introducing new characters works well.


First off, I think it's safe to say that no one (save for a rather vocal minority) are accusing DC writers of being INTENTIONALLY racist. I think the article is just pointing out that by insisting on returning to legacy characters, they are being unintentionally biased towards white characters. This really isn't any current creator's fault though. The characters that the past generations grew up with were created in a time where racial diversity didn't exist in the medium. While these characters are better known with audiences, they're still placing newer characters on the backburner. Or they're killing them off and shoving them in matchboxes. Ryan Choi's sudden death just threw all of this into perspective. I think people were noticing that the DCU was starting to get whiter, and I don't think anyone had a huge problem with it (they understand the original characters were white, no big deal). That is, until DCU killed off a pretty cool Chinese-American character just so Deathstroke can prove a point. I think that's what made people start considering the shape that the DCU is taking. In terms of writing, Slade doesn't really have to prove a point. We as readers know by now that you don't fuck with him. So Ryan's death, which does *kind of* make sense when the writers explain it, is still questionable. Mainly because it raises the question of how many other characters with potential are going to get blindsided in order to make room for the legacies?

And Thatcher, I would disagree with you. There *are* good minority characters, we just never have a chance to interact with them, and the big writers act as if they're afraid to tackle them. Characters like Jon Stewart, Vixen, Ryan Choi, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain etc. are good characters with the potential to be relative and compelling. In many cases, they already were, but they were dwarfed by their precursors whose only obvious advantage is that they've existed longer and therefore had the chance to develop a richer canon and a deeper backstory.

If authors, prolific or not, refuse to breathe some life into these characters and develop them (or at least keep them alive to be explored and developed), then the only characters we'll ever read will be DC's usual legacy line-up. Depending on who you are, this can be a good or a bad thing, but I think everyone can agree that all of these legacy characters have had their moments where they have just been, for lack of a better term, completely played out. DC knows that, and so all of these Silver Age characters have come and gone from prominence in the DCU lineup, and been replaced with a new character to fill the space.


I think when it comes right down to it, the DC legacy is only as strong as the characters who support it, whether they've been around for six months for sixty years.

Length be damned, this was a good post.

Thank you Wade, and thank you for taking the time to read it.

Thatcher, I see where you're coming from now, and you're right. Comics can get more than a little quagmirey when it comes to reconciling creativity and the politics of marketing; any market that depends on the imagination of others is going to end up that way.

But when you think about it, a lot of characters that are the legacies of today were the sideline characters of books that are now obscure. If someone doesn't at least try to work to keep a few of today's supporting cast alive, they're denying new characters a chance to find a new fanbase and establish future legacies, if that's what DC insists on using.

Also, kudos to Thatcher for peppering up his post with semi-obscure Greek lexicon.

I just find it ironic that dc are putting out a book this month called Legacies despite the fact they seem to have an hard on for killing any character created after the 80s....

Bigtymin504 wrote:

LordD3r3k wrote:

Spider_Fan14 wrote:So true, so true.

It's really not though. These characters aren't being pushed back because they're ethnic, they're being pushed back because they're trying to become something they're not.

If these characters were simply made with their own story and identity, they'd have a far better chance at success than trying to replace an icon. The role they're cast in is what dooms them, not their skin color.

Make a compelling ethnic character with their own story and there's no reason it shouldn't succeed.

Make a compelling ethnic character that's shoe-horned into the role of an established icon and it's already facing the challenge of living up to unfair expectations.

This nonsense that the characters are being subconsciously weeded out because they're ethnic is just that, nonsense.

Well said. This has more to do with DC kinda overdoing the whole "legacy" thing than anything racial. In the end, the tendency will always be to go back to the original/classic/most popular version of a "legacy" character anyway, which DC has done a lot lately. And the vast majority of the time these characters just happen to be white, because they were created at a time when almost all comic characters were.

I mean the regressive storytelling stuff, not the whole ethnic thing. Sorry, shouldve been clearer.

and again, my head just exploded..

Spazzy wrote:and again, my head just exploded..

How so?

just from reading everyones thoughts haha

Wow, i've been reading the back and forth of this discussion and I think i'm with Spazzy on this one... Mind Blown..

I will say this Marvel does a way better job of integrating minority characters into stories, look at characters like Luke Cage and more recently The Patriot, Cage who was created during the blaxploitation era of the 70's and toiled in oblivion until Brian Micheal Bendis and Brian Azzarello brought him back. Luke Cage has pretty much been team leader of the Avengers for the past two years now. Now he's gonna run the Thunderbolts. The Patriot was a more recent character created in 2005 has his own shield and is the leader of the Young Avengers. The Avengers and Young Avengers titles have been good and well written. DC has enough minority characters to do this same thing, its all about crafting a good story surrounding minority characters.

The main point is not forcing the character down the reader’s throat. I do agree that Marvel has done a better job of this than DC. With most cases it is due to good writers and character development. DC seems to be very rooted in its past and its Golden Age characters. This can be annoying sometimes. I started reading Green Lantern when Kyle first got the ring. This made me look back and read some older GL stuff that focused on Hal. The same holds true with the Flash. Sometimes I think DC is way too reactionary when it comes to the changes they make. As soon as their some uproar the reverse their wheels.

Rath99 wrote:The main point is not forcing the character down the reader’s throat. I do agree that Marvel has done a better job of this than DC.

Oh, were you serious?

LordD3r3k wrote:

Rath99 wrote:The main point is not forcing the character down the reader’s throat. I do agree that Marvel has done a better job of this than DC.

Oh, were you serious?

Yeah..Cage and Patriot are 2 examples that were cited already. I'm not saying it's the 100% best way but it has been much more successful than DC's approach.

Rath99 wrote:Yeah..Cage and Patriot are 2 examples that were cited already. I'm not saying it's the 100% best way but it has been much more successful than DC's approach.

Cage worked because he had decent writing behind him. But he was very much forced down our throats. People just found it tolerable because they were entertained.

Again, that's what it really boils down to, having a good enough hook to make the character liked. Plus, Cage didn't have the disadvantage of trying to replace an icon. He was already his own character. Same with Patriot, he was built off an icon, but never as a means to be a replacement. That's why those characters succeeded as much as they have.

Which brings me back to my point, make interesting original characters, not replacements

LordD3r3k wrote:

Rath99 wrote:Yeah..Cage and Patriot are 2 examples that were cited already. I'm not saying it's the 100% best way but it has been much more successful than DC's approach.

Cage worked because he had decent writing behind him. But he was very much forced down our throats. People just found it tolerable because they were entertained.

Again, that's what it really boils down to, having a good enough hook to make the character liked. Plus, Cage didn't have the disadvantage of trying to replace an icon. He was already his own character. Same with Patriot, he was built off an icon, but never as a means to be a replacement. That's why those characters succeeded as much as they have.

Which brings me back to my point, make interesting original characters, not replacements

How was Cage forced, he never really had his own book since being written back into continuity? If anything Marvel showed how you ease a character back into story.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Rath99 wrote:Yeah..Cage and Patriot are 2 examples that were cited already. I'm not saying it's the 100% best way but it has been much more successful than DC's approach.

Cage worked because he had decent writing behind him. But he was very much forced down our throats. People just found it tolerable because they were entertained.

Again, that's what it really boils down to, having a good enough hook to make the character liked. Plus, Cage didn't have the disadvantage of trying to replace an icon. He was already his own character. Same with Patriot, he was built off an icon, but never as a means to be a replacement. That's why those characters succeeded as much as they have.

Which brings me back to my point, make interesting original characters, not replacements

I mentioned the writing in my original post. And I agree with you 100%.

Maybe that's DC's problem. They keep trying to pass the mantle of their old characters instead of creating new ones to develop.