Batman and Robin

I will probably be writing a bit on here soon soon as I am only now starting the series and have some back issues to read..plus meh wow subscription gave up according to dc so i will be getting these every month according to them

prescribeddrone wrote:I loved issue 9.

Same here. I thought it was great.

#10 a-fucking-mazing. I'm loving it.

I thought issue #10 was meh. It wasn't as bad as previous issues, but I didn't love it.

I just don't like how Morrison writes. Something is off about it for me. It's like he makes jumps in the story that just don't flow. I mean, they found these clues in this issue WAY too easily. It didn't feel natural to me. They figure that there may be clues, and then they are immediately finding them all over? It just doesn't feel right to me.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that there was a secret passage in the mansion that they never knew about.

I loved this issue. I think Morrison does a great job with this series. I loved the part where Damian genuinely seems upset over the fact that he might not be Robin anymore once Bruce is back. You can see that Damian wants to be Robin and I like this change in him. I also thought it was cool to see that Talia is trying to use Damian against Dick. I thought this issue was great and I am loving these three part stories with a different artist for each story and obviously since Grant is writing the Return of Bruce Wayne mini-series, this story is probably one of the stories that will launch that mini-series. Loved it.

#10 was great! I'm not too familiar with this Gravedigger character but I find him very interesting. This has quickly moved up the ranks of my favorite Bat-titles...and to think, it used to be my least favorite.

Batman25JM wrote:I thought issue #10 was meh. It wasn't as bad as previous issues, but I didn't love it.

I just don't like how Morrison writes. Something is off about it for me. It's like he makes jumps in the story that just don't flow. I mean, they found these clues in this issue WAY too easily. It didn't feel natural to me. They figure that there may be clues, and then they are immediately finding them all over? It just doesn't feel right to me.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that there was a secret passage in the mansion that they never knew about.

Wait, the world's best detective team is finding clues too easily? Bats my boy surely you do jest

It may seem fast, but again, they are great detectives
And why would they know about the passage? Alfred only knows what he helped Bruce built, and Dick only knows what they've showed him. Why would either them have knowledge of a cave built by a Wayne ancestor?

jaydee74 wrote:I loved this issue. I think Morrison does a great job with this series. I loved the part where Damian genuinely seems upset over the fact that he might not be Robin anymore once Bruce is back. You can see that Damian wants to be Robin and I like this change in him. I also thought it was cool to see that Talia is trying to use Damian against Dick. I thought this issue was great and I am loving these three part stories with a different artist for each story and obviously since Grant is writing the Return of Bruce Wayne mini-series, this story is probably one of the stories that will launch that mini-series. Loved it.

Agreed with everything here. Morrison never fails to intrigue me.

Sooooo... who else figures Gravedigger is Bruce? Or have we been given some reason to expressly believe he isn't, and I'm just fogetting?

Mnemosis wrote:Sooooo... who else figures Gravedigger is Bruce? Or have we been given some reason to expressly believe he isn't, and I'm just fogetting?

I had the same thought. But I figure it's not Bruce because why wouldn't he just reveal to them he's Bruce? Why the charade?

Issue 10 was the best so far. I'm so loving this book I almost don't want Bruce to return. Yeah Damian's reaction to the possibility that his father's still alive was intriguing and brilliantly captured in both word and image by Morrison and Clarke. In fact what a great job Andy Clarke did throught this issue! The opening scene with Damian in the board room was pitched just right, Clarke is almost as good at the facial expressions as Quitely who turned in yet another stunning cover. I too am puzzling over the identity of The Gravedigger. What a cool character! His costume and general demeanor recall Morrison's characters in The Invisibles. I don't think he's Bruce though, simply because Grayson found 'something familiar' about him. If it were Bruce surely he'd have recognised him. I'd say it's the Joker though what he's up to is anyones guess.


Here's my theory - We're back to the old 'Bruce is Hurt is Thomas Wayne is the Devil' stuff from way back in RIP (did you really think Morrison had forgotten all that?)

Bruce as Hurt is still plausible, Wouldn't we all like to see a real Evil Bruce? Maybe something happens during Bruce's Omega Sanction journey through the time zones to convince Bruce to turn to evil for the greater good, whatever, it's all part of Bruce's plan to make a better Batman. Maybe 'Hurt' is not just the Devil, he’s Bruce’s very own, personal Devil. Remember how at the start of Morrison's run on Batman, Post 52 in the Thogal Ritual, Bruce’s demons were cut out. Where did they go? Could they have occupied one of the bodies left behind by Darkseid after Final Crisis?
And we’ve seen evidence of it. We’ve seen Hurt’s true form clinging to Bat-Mite like a demon of the Id. And what is Bat-Mite but a 5th Dimensional representation of Batman’s creative thoughts and imagination, You can see how another dimensional demonic, dark version of Bruce might have an equivalent. I'm guessing all this will play out and resolve itself in 'The Return of Bruce Wayne'. It's been quite a trip.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:I thought issue #10 was meh. It wasn't as bad as previous issues, but I didn't love it.

I just don't like how Morrison writes. Something is off about it for me. It's like he makes jumps in the story that just don't flow. I mean, they found these clues in this issue WAY too easily. It didn't feel natural to me. They figure that there may be clues, and then they are immediately finding them all over? It just doesn't feel right to me.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that there was a secret passage in the mansion that they never knew about.

Wait, the world's best detective team is finding clues too easily? Bats my boy surely you do jest

It may seem fast, but again, they are great detectives
And why would they know about the passage? Alfred only knows what he helped Bruce built, and Dick only knows what they've showed him. Why would either them have knowledge of a cave built by a Wayne ancestor?

jaydee74 wrote:I loved this issue. I think Morrison does a great job with this series. I loved the part where Damian genuinely seems upset over the fact that he might not be Robin anymore once Bruce is back. You can see that Damian wants to be Robin and I like this change in him. I also thought it was cool to see that Talia is trying to use Damian against Dick. I thought this issue was great and I am loving these three part stories with a different artist for each story and obviously since Grant is writing the Return of Bruce Wayne mini-series, this story is probably one of the stories that will launch that mini-series. Loved it.

Agreed with everything here. Morrison never fails to intrigue me.

Personally I think I enjoy the anticipation of things to come and watching everything fall into place than the story itself. I can understand where Batman25JM is coming from but at the same time, I understand that Morrison is trying to create a sense of urgency a la crime thriller/drama style. As for the clues, it doesn't surprise me only in that they may be in a frame of mind that allows them to find such clues, akin to glancing over a word serach vs. actively searching for words. And given how good Dick is at riddles and so forth (his detective skills are always underestimated by other writers--I'm not surprised to see Morrison remembering how good Dick is with such things), this does not bother me as much. All in all, I'm looking forward to all this being completed so I can go back and put it all together, since I missed out on various things along the way. The constant red/black imagery is wonderful, though. I love how it keeps coming back, creating a constant thread among a variety of things that would seem unconnected at first glance.

Btw, Sexton, the Gravedigger. Dohohohohoho, I feel smart for catching that earlier.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:I thought issue #10 was meh. It wasn't as bad as previous issues, but I didn't love it.

I just don't like how Morrison writes. Something is off about it for me. It's like he makes jumps in the story that just don't flow. I mean, they found these clues in this issue WAY too easily. It didn't feel natural to me. They figure that there may be clues, and then they are immediately finding them all over? It just doesn't feel right to me.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that there was a secret passage in the mansion that they never knew about.

Wait, the world's best detective team is finding clues too easily? Bats my boy surely you do jest

It may seem fast, but again, they are great detectives
And why would they know about the passage? Alfred only knows what he helped Bruce built, and Dick only knows what they've showed him. Why would either them have knowledge of a cave built by a Wayne ancestor?

I know that they are great detectives, but it still seemed too fast.

Dick grew up in that mansion. Are you telling me he never explored the place? Sure, he may not have found it, but still.

And I find it hard to believe that Bruce wouldn't explore. I know damn well he'd check every inch of that place, and his is the world's greatest detective. He'd find it. And if he did find it I'd also find it hard to believe that he wouldn't tell Alfred.

It just seems like they are going too fast. I get they are great detectives, but going from not noticing anything to noticing everything is a bit much. I do think that Wade's explanation of them being in the frame of mind to find clues could explain some, but it still feels like it's going too fast. I'd prefer a slower pace, where they have to actually think and not just warp through it.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Mnemosis wrote:Sooooo... who else figures Gravedigger is Bruce? Or have we been given some reason to expressly believe he isn't, and I'm just fogetting?

I had the same thought. But I figure it's not Bruce because why wouldn't he just reveal to them he's Bruce? Why the charade?

I had the same thought. They could easily make it Bruce and make up a reason he doesn't reveal himself.

Hey, which 52 trades can I read that involve Morrison/Batman? Hopefully it's one collected trade or something.

*I ordered 52 Week 30 and 47. Is that all I need?

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:I thought issue #10 was meh. It wasn't as bad as previous issues, but I didn't love it.

I just don't like how Morrison writes. Something is off about it for me. It's like he makes jumps in the story that just don't flow. I mean, they found these clues in this issue WAY too easily. It didn't feel natural to me. They figure that there may be clues, and then they are immediately finding them all over? It just doesn't feel right to me.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that there was a secret passage in the mansion that they never knew about.

Wait, the world's best detective team is finding clues too easily? Bats my boy surely you do jest

It may seem fast, but again, they are great detectives
And why would they know about the passage? Alfred only knows what he helped Bruce built, and Dick only knows what they've showed him. Why would either them have knowledge of a cave built by a Wayne ancestor?

jaydee74 wrote:I loved this issue. I think Morrison does a great job with this series. I loved the part where Damian genuinely seems upset over the fact that he might not be Robin anymore once Bruce is back. You can see that Damian wants to be Robin and I like this change in him. I also thought it was cool to see that Talia is trying to use Damian against Dick. I thought this issue was great and I am loving these three part stories with a different artist for each story and obviously since Grant is writing the Return of Bruce Wayne mini-series, this story is probably one of the stories that will launch that mini-series. Loved it.

Agreed with everything here. Morrison never fails to intrigue me.

I think the mystery with Batman and Robin finding these clues in the house is very exciting and interesting. Considering that Bruce is time lost, maybe he's messing with time in a way that is changing the house?

I am really liking Morrison. There are times where I think he's just not that great but there are so many more times when I think he does great work.

jaydee74 wrote:

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:I thought issue #10 was meh. It wasn't as bad as previous issues, but I didn't love it.

I just don't like how Morrison writes. Something is off about it for me. It's like he makes jumps in the story that just don't flow. I mean, they found these clues in this issue WAY too easily. It didn't feel natural to me. They figure that there may be clues, and then they are immediately finding them all over? It just doesn't feel right to me.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that there was a secret passage in the mansion that they never knew about.

Wait, the world's best detective team is finding clues too easily? Bats my boy surely you do jest

It may seem fast, but again, they are great detectives
And why would they know about the passage? Alfred only knows what he helped Bruce built, and Dick only knows what they've showed him. Why would either them have knowledge of a cave built by a Wayne ancestor?

jaydee74 wrote:I loved this issue. I think Morrison does a great job with this series. I loved the part where Damian genuinely seems upset over the fact that he might not be Robin anymore once Bruce is back. You can see that Damian wants to be Robin and I like this change in him. I also thought it was cool to see that Talia is trying to use Damian against Dick. I thought this issue was great and I am loving these three part stories with a different artist for each story and obviously since Grant is writing the Return of Bruce Wayne mini-series, this story is probably one of the stories that will launch that mini-series. Loved it.

Agreed with everything here. Morrison never fails to intrigue me.

I think the mystery with Batman and Robin finding these clues in the house is very exciting and interesting. Considering that Bruce is time lost, maybe he's messing with time in a way that is changing the house?

I am really liking Morrison. There are times where I think he's just not that great but there are so many more times when I think he does great work.

But, if he is messing with time, then the house should have always been like that. He would have always have been in the time periods he was sent too, it's just that now we are caught up to the time when he is actually sent to the past.

I don't think I wrote that clearly, but I hope you get what I mean.

I'd just much rather have an exciting story where Dick and Damian are searching for clues. A sort of National Treasure type story. And yes, I LOVE that movie.

Dude. It's the first part of a three parter. I just re-read the first 10 issues of Grant's run and it's brilliant. Whatever he's got going on in this story is going to be good. Have faith Grasshopper.

They did say that it seems like it seems "the house is coming to life". So whatever Bruce is doing is having an effect. Personally, I LOVE Morrison's run and can't wait for more.

jaydee74 wrote:Dude. It's the first part of a three parter. I just re-read the first 10 issues of Grant's run and it's brilliant. Whatever he's got going on in this story is going to be good. Have faith Grasshopper.

Honestly, I don't have faith. I hoped that RIP and FC would turn out good, and IMO both sucked.

While I don't go into each issue of Batman and Robin expecting to hate it, I almost always do end up hating it. I try to go in with the attitude that I'll finally see what's so great about Morrison, but yet I don't.

And before anyone asks the question "if you hate Morrison and the book, why do you keep reading it?". I keep reading it because I know it's been leading up to Bruce's return, and I want to know what's going on with that.

prescribeddrone wrote:They did say that it seems like it seems "the house is coming to life". So whatever Bruce is doing is having an effect. Personally, I LOVE Morrison's run and can't wait for more.

I don't think that one comment proves that Bruce is having an effect. If Bruce had an effect on the past then the house should have always had the passages and clues. It wouldn't just magically change right now, and it certainly wouldn't magically change at the EXACT moment that Dick and Damian are beginning to look for clues.

To me the quote you mention only means that now they are realizing there are clues everywhere.

Can I ask you a serious question then? As far as I can remember, there are like 8 different Bat-titles at the moment. Why are you reading something you don't like? You obviously don't like Morrison. Why torture yourself with reading something you don't like? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

To quote my other favourite pop culture icon (Doctor Who) -

“People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect… but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly…. timey-wimey…. stuff.”

It's entirely possible that Bruce's shennanigans in the past is altering the present as Damian and Dick are experiencing it. Including the psycho -geography of thier surroundings.



Also we need to bear in mind that Morrison is once again dealing with metafiction. If he says Stately Wayne Manor has a secret Batcave then Stately Wayne Manor has a secret Batcave until someone else says it doesn't.


I'm surprised no-one has commented on my guess that Bruce for reasons which will become apparent, has actually become Doctor Hurt/The Devil in one of his Omega Sanction past lives - effectively kicking off the whole RIP scenario.


Oh and Batman25JM, I don't think you're ever going to 'get' Morrison if you continue to assume that there is anything to 'get'. Don't read this book if you don't like it. The events of 'The Return of Bruce Wayne' will be well enough documented (not to mention retconned away in a few years time) without you having to (as Jaydee says) torture yourself reading a book you don't like.

When it doubt, quote Doctor Who. Brilliant.

Jherek wrote:I'm surprised no-one has commented on my guess that Bruce for reasons which will become apparent, has actually become Doctor Hurt/The Devil in one of his Omega Sanction past lives - effectively kicking off the whole RIP scenario.

WAIT! Dr. Hurt's big shtick was that he kept calling himself "Thomas Wayne".. and we just learned in this issue that the ancestor Thomas Wayne practiced cult worshiping and other unsavory acts, which is why his portrait no longer hangs in the manor. During RIP, we all assumed "Thomas Wayne" was referring to Bruce's father, but perhaps it's really referring to the ancestor. Jherek my boy, I think you're on to something here!

And BTW, this just blew my mind

So some people think that Sexton is Joker....and when he's hanging his trenchcoat, there is a pair of purple looking slacks there.

Interesting if it was colored like that intentionally.

jaydee74 wrote:Can I ask you a serious question then? As far as I can remember, there are like 8 different Bat-titles at the moment. Why are you reading something you don't like? You obviously don't like Morrison. Why torture yourself with reading something you don't like? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Are you serious with this question? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm actually asking. In the post right above yours I preemptively answered this question:

Batman25JM wrote:
And before anyone asks the question "if you hate Morrison and the book, why do you keep reading it?". I keep reading it because I know it's been leading up to Bruce's return, and I want to know what's going on with that.

Jherek wrote:To quote my other favourite pop culture icon (Doctor Who) -

“People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect… but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly…. timey-wimey…. stuff.”

It's entirely possible that Bruce's shennanigans in the past is altering the present as Damian and Dick are experiencing it. Including the psycho -geography of thier surroundings.

I HATE that type of time travel logic. The "changes" in the manor should have always been there, IMO.

Jherek wrote:
Oh and Batman25JM, I don't think you're ever going to 'get' Morrison if you continue to assume that there is anything to 'get'. Don't read this book if you don't like it. The events of 'The Return of Bruce Wayne' will be well enough documented (not to mention retconned away in a few years time) without you having to (as Jaydee says) torture yourself reading a book you don't like.

Bruce is my favorite fictional character, and as much as I dislike what Morrison is doing, as well as his writing, I want to read what is going on with him. I don't want to hear about it second hand.

And there may not be some secret thing that I'm missing that would make me like Morrison, but there is always a chance that I could change my mind about him. I used to HATE the comedian Mitch Hedberg, and then one day something finally clicked, and now he's probably my favorite comedian of all time. A similar thing happened with Star Wars. I hated it as a kid, and now I love it. It's happened with many other things with me as well (the Stargate franchise, the Star Trek franchise, Pokemon, and many more). Just because I don't like Morrison now, doesn't mean I'll always hate him, and since I love Bruce and Dick so much I want to read the book that is basically the flagship of their stories.

^Also, I haven't hated everything I've read from Morrison. I like some of the New X-Men stuff I've read of his. As well as the little bit of Flash stuff of his, and what I've read of All-Star Superman hasn't been that bad.