Batman

I didn't read Final Crisis so 702 confused the hell out of me. If I had known what was going on I think I would have enjoyed this more.

^ I had heard enough of FC to follow along, but yeah, a recap page would have been nice. If only DC believed in those.

Batman #702


I think my opinion of Grant Morrison's work is pretty well known on the boards. It's certainly well documented. Anyway, this issue didn't do anything to chance that opinion.

I didn't hate it with a fiery passion, but I certainly didn't love it.

I still don't think I get the whole magic bullet thing. It's just plain weird (no surprise there, I mean this is Morrison). Also, I know Batman is smart, but I just do not buy him being able to create this one bit. This is so out of his area it's ridiculous.

I still HATE HATE HATE that Batman used a gun. It just feels so wrong. I know there was the thing with him making this once in a lifetime exception about using firearms, but I still didn't like it at all. He made a vow and he should have stuck with it. For him to go back on it, even once cheapens that vow, IMO. He has always been able to find other solutions, but here he took the easy way out.


I dropped The Return of Bruce Wayne and Batman & Robin a while ago and it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. The only reason I got this issue was so I didn't break up my Batman run (from the point I started getting it). Other than maybe getting an issue by him if it's to not break up a run, I'm seriously, eternally done getting Morrison books.

Batman25JM wrote:I still don't think I get the whole magic bullet thing. It's just plain weird (no surprise there, I mean this is Morrison). Also, I know Batman is smart, but I just do not buy him being able to create this one bit. This is so out of his area it's ridiculous.

Create what, exactly?

I still HATE HATE HATE that Batman used a gun. It just feels so wrong. I know there was the thing with him making this once in a lifetime exception about using firearms, but I still didn't like it at all. He made a vow and he should have stuck with it. For him to go back on it, even once cheapens that vow, IMO. He has always been able to find other solutions, but here he took the easy way out.

Not that this is going to change your opinion, but it's not like he used it against some common thug because he was too lazy to pull out a batarang. For Bruce, this was the epitome of evil he was facing. This was all the scum of Gotham, his rogues, and the unseen force that murdered his parents all rolled into one. If you're staring the devil in the eyes, you're going to need more than a good karate chop.

Not to mention, at that point Darkseid had conquered Earth and the heroes were basically beaten. This was the only chance of the heroes turning the tide, was he not supposed to take it?

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:I still don't think I get the whole magic bullet thing. It's just plain weird (no surprise there, I mean this is Morrison). Also, I know Batman is smart, but I just do not buy him being able to create this one bit. This is so out of his area it's ridiculous.

Create what, exactly?

Never mind. Forget I said that. I was so mixed up. I'd forgotten that he found the bullet. The way this issue went I was mistakenly thinking he created it. Damn you DC for your refusal to do recap pages!!!!!

LordD3r3k wrote:

I still HATE HATE HATE that Batman used a gun. It just feels so wrong. I know there was the thing with him making this once in a lifetime exception about using firearms, but I still didn't like it at all. He made a vow and he should have stuck with it. For him to go back on it, even once cheapens that vow, IMO. He has always been able to find other solutions, but here he took the easy way out.

Not that this is going to change your opinion, but it's not like he used it against some common thug because he was too lazy to pull out a batarang. For Bruce, this was the epitome of evil he was facing. This was all the scum of Gotham, his rogues, and the unseen force that murdered his parents all rolled into one. If you're staring the devil in the eyes, you're going to need more than a good karate chop.

Not to mention, at that point Darkseid had conquered Earth and the heroes were basically beaten. This was the only chance of the heroes turning the tide, was he not supposed to take it?

He should have, and could have found another way. His vow wasn't "I won't use firearms on normal thugs, but if it's against ultimate evil then eh, it's okay". I mean, to him, the ultimate evil is everywhere. Ultimate evil is a thug who guns down a husband and wife in front of their son. And I refuse to believe that the Joker isn't ultimate evil. If you start making exceptions then it becomes that much easier to justify making more in the future. He compromised himself and I hate that.

Batman25JM wrote:He should have, and could have found another way.

Refresh my memory, did you read Final Crisis?

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:He should have, and could have found another way.

Refresh my memory, did you read Final Crisis?

Yeah.

Batman25JM wrote:

LordD3r3k wrote:
Refresh my memory, did you read Final Crisis?

Yeah.

So then you remember how Darkseid enslaved 90% of the world. Converted most of the heroes to his army using the anti-life equation and/or morticoccus virus, and continually body-jumped to keep himself virtually immortal.

You'll also remember Batman was captured and tortured by Darkseid's minions for days (if not weeks, I forgot the timeframe of the story). To the point where when he finally confronted Darkseid, it was just mere moments from being freed of that torture. So needless to say, he wasn't exactly in the best condition.

So knowing all this information, lying at Batman's feet is a device that is designed for defeating this manner of being he's about to face, and you're saying he should have said to himself "sure, I've been tortured for days on end and I feel like I'm losing my mind, I can barely stand, and the world's about to end.. but bullets are bad, let's see if my batarangs are somewhere around here..."?

I mean, this is Darkseid. What other options would he have had?

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't thrilled to see him use a gun either, and a small part of me does agree with you, but then I assess the situation he was in and can accept there was no other option.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote:

LordD3r3k wrote:
Refresh my memory, did you read Final Crisis?

Yeah.

So then you remember how Darkseid enslaved 90% of the world. Converted most of the heroes to his army using the anti-life equation and/or morticoccus virus, and continually body-jumped to keep himself virtually immortal.

You'll also remember Batman was captured and tortured by Darkseid's minions for days (if not weeks, I forgot the timeframe of the story). To the point where when he finally confronted Darkseid, it was just mere moments from being freed of that torture. So needless to say, he wasn't exactly in the best condition.

So knowing all this information, lying at Batman's feet is a device that is designed for defeating this manner of being he's about to face, and you're saying he should have said to himself "sure, I've been tortured for days on end and I feel like I'm losing my mind, I can barely stand, and the world's about to end.. but bullets are bad, let's see if my batarangs are somewhere around here..."?

I mean, this is Darkseid. What other options would he have had?

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't thrilled to see him use a gun either, and a small part of me does agree with you, but then I assess the situation he was in and can accept there was no other option.

The true mettle of a man is discovered by viewing his actions in the toughest of situations. It's damn easy to have convictions when everything is good or easy. When there is no stress, and the situation is not dire. But, convictions are only convictions if they are held at all times.

Sure, Batman had been tortured, and the world had gone to shit, but how many times had that happened before? Morrison didn't have to write it like that, and I hate him for doing it. I'd have hated him less if I'd seen more disgust from Batman for what he was doing/about to do. And I'd have loved him if he had made it where it appeared that the only option was the gun and Batman threw the gun away and came up with another plan.

Batman25JM wrote: It's damn easy to have convictions when everything is good or easy. When there is no stress, and the situation is not dire. But, convictions are only convictions if they are held at all times.

And I think it's damn easy for us to just look at the story and say "he should have found another way". But the bottom line is, there was no other way. He had two choices, use the bullet or let the world be destroyed. If those were your two choices, what would you do? Apparently, let the world die. I'm sure people would pat you on the back in the afterlife for sticking to your morals.

Sure, Batman had been tortured, and the world had gone to shit, but how many times had that happened before? Morrison didn't have to write it like that, and I hate him for doing it. I'd have hated him less if I'd seen more disgust from Batman for what he was doing/about to do.

Yeah, he tried to tell a unique story by showing us what would happen if the bad guy actually won. That son of a bitch.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Batman25JM wrote: It's damn easy to have convictions when everything is good or easy. When there is no stress, and the situation is not dire. But, convictions are only convictions if they are held at all times.

And I think it's damn easy for us to just look at the story and say "he should have found another way". But the bottom line is, there was no other way. He had two choices, use the bullet or let the world be destroyed. If those were your two choices, what would you do? Apparently, let the world die. I'm sure people would pat you on the back in the afterlife for sticking to your morals.

There's a big difference between fiction and real life. Sure, if this were real life I'm sure that 99.9% of the population would have fired the gun. I'd have been one of them. And in that instance I would have no problems. But the fact is, this is a fictional story. It could go any way the writer wanted (didn't it end with Superman singing the bad guy away?). So, Batman could have found another way because the writer could have written it to be so. I like heroes that aren't perfect. I do. But, with Batman, I want him to keep his convictions. And there is no reason he couldn't have here because it could have been written that way.

If this had happened in real life, I'd agree with you about it being easy to say he could have found another way. It's damn easy to play armchair quarterback. Hell, most American do that about everything. It's easy to bitch about politicians and how they should have done things differently. I do it. But again, with fiction anything can happen. And that's my biggest problem here. This wasn't something that had to happen. It's something a writer decided they wanted to do.

LordD3r3k wrote:

Sure, Batman had been tortured, and the world had gone to shit, but how many times had that happened before? Morrison didn't have to write it like that, and I hate him for doing it. I'd have hated him less if I'd seen more disgust from Batman for what he was doing/about to do.

Yeah, he tried to tell a unique story by showing us what would happen if the bad guy actually won. That son of a bitch.

Well, I have no inherent problem with a story about the bad guy winning. It's just that one, that didn't really happen here. Darkseid won for what? A few issues. Bad guys have won like that in the past. Two, I didn't like the story because I hate how Morrison writes. But, I'm fine with that. I realize that other do like how he writes. The comment you bolded was about how Morrison didn't have to write it where Batman uses a gun. There was absolutely NO reason that had to happen. That's what I'm most upset about. I would hate that just as much even if someone else had wrote it.

Batman25JM wrote: The comment you bolded was about how Morrison didn't have to write it where Batman uses a gun. There was absolutely NO reason that had to happen. That's what I'm most upset about. I would hate that just as much even if someone else had wrote it.

No doubt, and again I don't necessarily disagree. And while it may have only been a few issues where Darkseid was winning, I think it's safe to say this is the worst the heroes were ever beaten. I can't recall any other time in continuity where the heroes lost earth to a villain.

And yes, Morrison wrote it to where Batman used the gun. But I think that perfectly illustrates how dire the situation was. I think if he just 'found some other way' it would have read like every other typical event we've seen before.

^Maybe, but it would have kept Batman true to himself. Like I said before, I wouldn't have hated it as much if Batman had shown disgust. Have a caption box of him saying "I hate myself for this" or "Mom and dad, I've failed you". Something like that. Also, have him throw the gun away with a sick look on his face. Wasn't he smiling as he did it?

Batman25JM wrote: Wasn't he smiling as he did it?

He was smiling that he 'beat' Darkseid. Which again, at that moment was evil incarnate for Bruce. It's as if it were an old Western shoot-out against your greatest adversary and you were the faster draw

^Still would have liked to see disgust. He beat ultimate evil, but had to go against his believes to do it.

Batman25JM wrote:^Still would have liked to see disgust. He beat ultimate evil, but had to go against his believes to do it.

IIRC, the gun represented Bruce's life coming full circle. It was how he was truly 'born' and it would be how he died. He was taking control of an aspect of his life that he always felt a victim to

Batman #703

I actually really enjoyed this issue. As I said in the Red Robin thread, I'm really becoming a big fan of Fabian Nicieza. I wish he was continuing on as writer of Batman. I just don't care for Daniel (though I'd rather have him than Morrison).

The art was just meh. I liked some of it okay, but didn't like other parts (really didn't like how Red Robin looked).

I really enjoy the way Nicieza writes Damian. And the more I see of Damian, the more I like him. Him discovering that he really didn't know his father was great. I can't wait to see what happens when Bruce returns.

The interaction between Damian and Bruce is what I am most looking forward to.

I enjoyed the issue, but the scenes with Vicki Vale felt clumsy

703 was a decent filler issue.

^^^^What nearly everyone said...most filler issues are crap, and this was surprisingly good. It would be nice to pick up the pieces from the Riddler story, if Daniel ever gets around to that. Otherwise, this was pretty interesting. Not sure if I chose to pick up The Road Home or not in the solicits... 3.5/5

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Ra's al Ghul


I guess I'll put this here.

I really enjoyed this. I think it was my favorite of the Road Home one-shots. I just really like Ra's and Bruce together.

I LOVED the art. I'm a big fan of McDaniel's work.

I'm glad that Bruce revealed himself to Vicki and that she's now on his side. I do wish they'd start up a romantic relationship again though.

You wouldn't rather have Batman with Selina over Vicki?

^Not really. I'm not the biggest Catwoman fan. She's okay, and I'd be okay if they got together, they would be a good match, but I like Vicki.

Never been a huge fan of Vicki to be honest. She was just a background character as far as I'm concerned and while I like what they are doing with her now, I had always seen Bruce with Selina more than anyone else.